A changing of the guard

Wow, an amazing result in this election if it holds.  I was sure that the Liberals would pull off another majority but it seems the anger against them was greater than anticipated and we seem to be converging on a minority government with the Liberals one seat ahead of the NDP and the Greens tripling their seats.

What is likely to come if this holds?  Well could be a Liberal minority although I don’t see how that would be effective, or could be a coalition.   Despite some grumblings about John Horgan’s temper, it is more likely that that the Greens will want to work with the NDP as the two big priorities for Weaver was to get money out of politics and bring in proportional representation which the NDP has also promised.  Of course at current counts a coalition only gets them to 44 which is hardly enough to be effective.

At the very least it seems like it might be worth looking at what each party says about housing.  Let’s look at the NDP Platform and what it says about housing:

  1. New Supply: Build 114,000 affordable rental, non profit, co-op and owner purchase housing units through partnerships over ten years.  Use public land to build housing.  Get new student housing built by removing unnecessary rules that prevent universities and colleges from building affordable student housing
  2. Renters: Introduce a refundable renter’s rebate of $400 dollars per rental household in BC each year.   Close the BC Liberals’ “fixed term lease” loophole and ensure controls on rent increases are enforced.   Re-invest in co-op housing.
  3. Speculation:  Close the loopholes that let speculators dodge taxes and hide their identities.   Direct the revenue from the absentee speculators’ tax into a Housing Affordability Fund.  Establish a multi-agency task force to fight tax fraud and money laundering in the BC real estate marketplace.
  4. Foreign buyers tax:  There isn’t anything specific in the platform, but other reports have said the NDP want to bring in a 2% foreign speculators tax for foreign owners that don’t pay income tax.

What about the Greens?  Well looking at the Green Platform on housing we can see it is a bit more aggressive:

  1. New Supply:  Build 4000 affordable units per year.  Use public land to build housing.  Rethink zoning.
  2. Owners:  Make the home owner grant income tested.   Make property taxes progressive based on income.
  3. Renters: Introduce incentives for construction of rental properties.  Enhance the Residential Tenancy Act with more protections for renters.
  4. Speculation:  Implement a sliding scale PTT from 0-12% for properties between $200,000 and $3M with additional tax for flippers.   Lifetime capital gains limit of $750,000.
  5. Foreign buyers tax: Expand across province, raise to 30%.

What do you think will happen?  What will be the effect on Victoria’s and BC’s market?

Log in or Register

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

293 thoughts on “A changing of the guard

  1. “Andy 7” clearly doesn’t understand the geography of the Vancouver market.
    Kitsilano is Not at all like Uplands or rockland in Victoria. Check it out. I have. I grew up in Vancouver and know the market there quite well. I simply used Kitsilano as a general reference. In actual fact…I could have picked a house all the way out to the Vancouver east side where modest houses are still selling today for around $2 and a half million. (I’m talking about Modest bungalows!) (A tear down bungalow in Kitsilano is still very close to $3million)
    Uplands and Rockland “might” be a better comparison to Shaughnessy in Vancouver and those prices in Shaughnessy are in a totally different league again…. as there are huge mansions and large properties, as there are in Uplands and Rockland.

  2. (For “Leo”)
    “So do you also expect Coquitlam and Abbotsford to rise substantially to be closer to the $3M SFH in Vancouver? If not, why not?”
    I don’t expect Coquitlam and Abbotsford to rise substantially closer to the $3M SFH in Vancouver for a number of the following reasons. (I’m not sure why you would ask that question but I’ll try to answer it as best I can.)
    The issue of the mind numbing commute into the downtown core of Vancouver from those areas is one reason there is no comparison.
    Then there is the issue of being too far from cultural things like the Opera, Live theatre, major hospitals, art galleries, variety of businesses….the interesting city action that Vancouver offers.
    On the other hand the city of Victoria offers an alternative hub for all those things and that is why a city like Victoria has value for people who like to be close to the core.
    In the inner Victoria core you can basically walk or bike to downtown, enjoy live theatre, interesting restaurants, any number of sports events, universities, hospitals…. all at your fingertips. Try doing that in Coquitlam or anywhere out in the Fraser valley for that matter.

  3. Just Jack,

    Need to get a property assessed in terms of valuation. How does one find you? Thanks in advance.

  4. Vicbot, there could at least be a limit on tax free capital gains for primary residences. This along with an increase in taxes for investment properties and a tax break for renters paying over 30% of their income in rent would greatly improve fairness IMO.

  5. As for the oil price, I don’t think it will ever recover and the tar in Alberta will forever remain in the sand. US shale oil is flooding the market and will keep prices depressed until vehicles start shifting en masse to electric (~5 years) and power generation goes mostly renewable (happening now) and oil consumption decreases to the point where the existing sources will be more than enough and will need to scale back.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/oil-prices-permian-canada-1.4110300

  6. Do you think, considering the property – 1772 Kings – & the asking price of $700 K that typing in $800 K would be too broad a range?

    I’ve added a minimum price box to the form. In general it’ll be fine, the only thing that doesn’t work is things like “single family homes in the core under $1.5M” There’s just too many.

    or is it a once day type thing & also how far back in time does it search for results?

    You get access to a website that shows you the up to date properties that are active or pending that match your criteria. You can check it anytime, it’s always up to date and will show properties as they are listed (not after a delay like realtor.ca). The “notify” is just whether you get an email if there was changes.

  7. Our economy is strong and relatively strong. Problem is it’s driven largely by real estate. When the cycle winds down, it will take most of the wind out of the economy and a natural slowdown will be compounded by job losses.

    That’s what happened in real estate dependent parts of California in spades, See Calculated Risk – http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2017/02/update-inland-empire-bust-and-recovery.html

    People that feel the need to consume conspicuously in order to make themselves feel better is indeed something to pity, not admire.

    Amen!

  8. @ Leo – thanks for the info. I’ll wait until I see a sold sign to make the query.

    Do you think, considering the property – 1772 Kings – & the asking price of $700 K that typing in $800 K would be too broad a range?

    If it doesn’t work could I make a different query in a smaller range or is it a once day type thing & also how far back in time does it search for results?

    Thanks, again.

  9. Mukluk: “If the market goes up 10% from your sale, a relatively modest number, before dipping, it now has to go down ~20% for you to break even.”

    Conversely, if the market goes up 100%, let’s say from $100,000 to $200,000. it would only have to drop by 50% to negate every gain. In 1982 I bought a brand new 1650 sq. ft. rancher with all the bells and whistles. It was $144,000 the year prior to my purchase of it for $76,000. How did I get so lucky? Well I was on the opposite side of the trade and followed my $135,000 home down to $99,000. before someone stepped up … leaving me $10,000 to buy in one year later.

    Crashes happen and if everyone understood how they work we would all be happy campers. There weren’t too many happy campers at that time as families were being torn apart and developers were going bankrupt.

    By the way, I’m not recommending timing the market as it could very well be a fool’s errand, however you are certainly crystallizing gains, that were only previously bragged about as equity, if you sell.

    Who should sell? I would suggest that Hawk and company have laid out the dire situation regarding debt in our society. Leverage runs both ways and you DON’T want to be on the wrong side of that game. It’s a life changer.

    Retirement seems to be an illusion for the 60 -65 yrs old workers lately, mostly based on the fact that defined benefit pensions have gone the way of the dodo. Anyone looking at the possibility of retirement prior to this run up in housing was probably quite disillusioned.

    Anyone 60 plus with the opportunity to crystallize $1,000,000 plus, capital gains free, is quite possibly looking at the biggest gift horse in the mouth that they will ever encounter. You are in the fourth quarter of your life … take the money and enjoy your life to the fullest. It is your reward for 40 yrs. of work.

  10. @Janney

    How does one find out the final sale price?

    Sign up for a Matrix account in the price range of houses you are interested in. See top right under the market summary on this page —->
    Criteria has to be narrowish as the system limits results to 350 per search.

  11. My point is that I believe that Victoria could still rise substantially and still be much less than Vancouver.

    I understood that. So do you also expect Coquitlam and Abbotsford to rise substantially to be closer to the $3M SFH in Vancouver? If not, why not?

  12. Ash, only a nit picking agent would stoop to that level. It’s Oaklands, just like the pumpers call Red Barn area Oak Bay.

    Haha. Well if all your favourite pumpers are doing it…

    Janney, North Jubilee’s a great area imo. I like the little pathways that allow north/ south foot/bike travel so one doesn’t always need to go out to Richmond/ shelbourne. And you’re right, Willows is deceptively close and i’d add Caravarn is even closer.

  13. It brings discussion on the wage issue back to light and why do employers feel they can pay less wages here than elsewhere?

    They pay exactly as much as they need to in order to attract talent.

    They of course ask for the cargo team to string nets over the Vancouver tubs for better security but the team says “there is no need, anytime a Canadian crab gets anywhere near the top the other crabs all drag him back down.”

    Looking at American and Canadian society, I know which I’ll chose. And if part of the difference is that Canadians look down on people flaunting their wealth, then that is a good thing. People that feel the need to consume conspicuously in order to make themselves feel better is indeed something to pity, not admire.

  14. I think we have to consider the interior now, parts of it are beautiful and Victoria will always be just a car/ferry ride away.

    What about up island? Much closer to the grandkids and there are some nice affordable places in Duncan or Chemainus. Why only Victoria or the interior?

  15. Is our economy really strong, or is it just stronger than the other provinces at the moment?

    Both I’d say. Our economy is strong and relatively strong. Problem is it’s driven largely by real estate. When the cycle winds down, it will take most of the wind out of the economy and a natural slowdown will be compounded by job losses.

  16. “why would the market dive all of a sudden? … The economy hasn’t been better and wages are way up.”

    I’m not suggesting that selling a primary residence to time the market is a good idea, but I wonder how the economy will fare in the near future. What happens if NAFTA is gone? What happens if the oil industry in Alberta picks back up? Do people lose their jobs and/or start moving back to Alberta? I’m not insinuating that it’s the sole driver but it doesn’t seem like a coincidence to me that home prices went up as the oil industry went down (i.e. people moving to BC/early retirement, etc). Is our economy really strong, or is it just stronger than the other provinces at the moment?

  17. “dereky houston — Leo (I do respect most of your postings)
    But I never said Victoria should be worth the same as Vancouver. Or even close.
    My point is that I believe that Victoria could still rise substantially and still be much less than Vancouver. For example: If the price of a house anywhere near downtown Victoria rose another $500,000 they would still be only HALF the price of a house in Kitsilano,Vancouver.
    That is why I would never sell my house in Victoria and start renting,,,, with the hope that prices will be cheaper any time soon.
    I don’t believe in gambling with ones principle residence. Too much to lose.
    Only time will tell who is right. But I believe that prices have still lot’s of room to move up. Talk to me in one year and you can say I was wrong or not:)”

    derykhouston, I don’t think you can hold Kitsilano as the reference price point to compare Vancouver to Victoria. Kits (like West Van) is one small, high end segment with the closest comparable being Uplands/Beach Drive/Rockland etc perhaps, and prices in Uplands/BD/Rockland are about equivalent to prices in Kits.

    There are nice houses to be had (that are currently undergoing price slashes) in other areas such as North Van, East Van and so on that perhaps would be a better comparable against Victoria. And we’re also seeing a turning of the tide– a lot of SFH’s are coming to market overpriced in Van, and then having price reductions — I think we’re mid tide where sellers are realizing they can’t get the prices they used to get, and want to get, and are having to re-adjust expectations.

    If you can buy a nice house in North Van for 1.5M (and those prices are dropping), I don’t expect to pay the same price for a house in Victoria. I would expect Vic to be cheaper unless we’re talking waterfront or certain select high-end neighborhoods.

    If prices are starting to drop for SFH in Vancouver, I don’t expect homes in Victoria to continue to rise. But that’s just my 2 cents. Time will tell.

  18. I can’t believe people are trying to time the market by selling. The costs to sell are so high, and the costs to buy again are also insanely high with the PTT… it would take a substantial downturn (which hasn’t happened ever here) just to break even.

    We had a 10 year period where prices went flat, which if you include inflation went down 20% or so, we are just recovering from that, why would the market dive all of a sudden? It’s not like there is speculation or overbuilding happening here. The economy hasn’t been better and wages are way up.

    Why not just rent the house out for a profit and put the rest into index funds. Way safer historically.

    I honestly think market timing is gambling.

  19. AG, I’m not mad in the least and no need of a second job like you soon will. Maybe you should get a life and go enjoy your high leverage lifestyle instead of posting slags at me everytime I post factual info of major price slashes and debt bubbles about to blow.

    Last time I looked this blog is called househunt about changing trends not a support group for maxed out houseowner/paranoid agents who can’t handle the reality of a changing market.

  20. You don’t see people on here clamouring that they live in Saanich.

    I clamour about that.

  21. AG, we’ve already discussed my finances; no sense beating a dead horse. Perhaps my posts came across a bit hard as I’m certainly not angry or resentful.

    I don’t think people are envious, resentful, or whatever you want to call it. I think people (whether they’re a homeowner or renter) have grown tired of listening to some people (a minority) tell them that their choice of location is inferior and that they’re supposed to aspire to a particular neighborhood(s). You don’t see people on here clamouring that they live in Saanich.

  22. Oopswediditagain: the numbers I picked were to illustrate the potential scenario of someone being right about an impending crash, and still losing money by “reverse flipping”. There doesn’t have to be a crash. There’s no guarantee of a crash, or even a decline of any sort. From here the market could continue going up quickly, up slowly, or sideways, or maybe even slightly down, but less down than the 5% needed to break even on your transactions costs from reverse flipping.

    If there’s no decline, then reverse flipping is obviously a huge bust. But even if there is a decline there’s a very good chance you don’t make money. For reverse flipping to work, you need the market to go at least 5% lower than your sell point to break even financially. When you account for the “soft costs”, hassles, complications and annoyances of moving, being forced to watch the market week in and week out to see if you can cover your short profitably, the number has to (very conservatively) be closer to 10% to break even. If the market goes up 10% from your sale, a relatively modest number, before dipping, it now has to go down ~20% for you to break even. That’s just to break even! For you to profit it has to fall further than that. AND in order to capture the full extent of a crash you have to resist the urge to buy in before it hits bottom, but you won’t know where the bottom is because no one does. Maybe the market will drop 22%, making your reverse flip barely profitable, but rather than buy back in you hold out because you want it to go down further–but then the market starts reversing and now your reverse flip is underwater again, and you wish and pray that the market will go back down just a bit further to make your wild gamble profitable again but by then the market has resumed its centuries-old ascent and it never comes back down to your break-even point.

    There are so, so few scenarios where a reverse flip is actually profitable in terms of all costs, tangible and intangible.

  23. Mukluk: “There are so many inherent problems with trying to time a real estate market.”

    1) “The real estate market goes up much more often than it goes down. There are about 5 up years for every down year. Yes, there are dips and busts (Toronto circa 1990 was a big one) but timing the exact peak is basically impossible. The market can drop but if it goes up 40% after you exit and then falls 25%, prices are still higher than when you sold.”

    Hi Mukluk. Your calculation is designed to accommodate your hypothesis. Generally, in a “crash” scenario there is a bigger drop than 25%. If, for example, you had a $100,000 home and it went up in value by 40% then your home would be worth $140,000. If it dropped by only 29% then your home would be worth less than when you purchased it. Now, if it reverted to the mean, god forbid, dropped the 40% that it gained, then your home would only be worth $84,000. Math is a bitch when it goes south.

    3)”Owning your own home is like owning an index fund in the stock market. You’ll get the market return, which over time is reliably up.”

    This could be true, however with the extreme leverage in the market a lot of people don’t have the luxury of sitting out big market drops because the banks are somewhat sensitive to home prices dropping to less than the mortgage on the home.

    If this was the case then so many people wouldn’t have lost their homes in the 80’s and 90’s. Far too many people spent months trying to sell their property before the banks took control. Those index funds tend to sell a lot quicker.

    4)”House prices are sticky; even if demand slackens, owners get used to the “new” value of their home pretty quick and tend to hang on to it and insist on getting it.”

    House prices are only sticky for those that can afford to wait. Divorces, job loss, transfers and a myriad of other practical reasons force home sales and guess what? In a slow market you price your home to sell. That sale then becomes the comparable for future sales much the same way as you count on your neighbour’s high sold price to benefit your potential sale.

  24. “Keep in mind these weathy homeowners are already making a huge profit”

    The people making a huge profit are flippers that buy/sell within a year or two, or some Vancouverites

    But most homeowners here pay plenty of property taxes, mortgage interest, and insurance, maintenance inside/outside, electricity, and heating bills every year for many years. Would those expenses be counted if they have to pay cap gains? There aren’t huge profits being made once you factor in all the expenses over many years.

  25. AG, your opinion means squat when you refer to every renter as someone in a basement.

    Hawk – There are some beautiful rental properties that I would be delighted to live in. There’s nothing wrong with renting at all. I just find it funny that you’re so mad about it. Maybe you should get a second job instead of commenting all day?

  26. There are so many inherent problems with trying to time a real estate market.

    1) The real estate market goes up much more often than it goes down. There are about 5 up years for every down year. Yes, there are dips and busts (Toronto circa 1990 was a big one) but timing the exact peak is basically impossible. The market can drop but if it goes up 40% after you exit and then falls 25%, prices are still higher than when you sold. In fact, not only do you have to time the exact peak, you have to time the exact bottom of the dip when you buy back in to really capture the full extent of a real estate decline. There’s basically no chance anyone can reliably do this.

    2) There are substantial transactions costs and just plain annoyances every time you change residences. If you’re selling in order to rent while waiting for the market to drop, you basically need the market to drop 5% just to break even after the realtor’s fees, lawyer’s fees, land transfer tax etc. that you incurred. That’s a lot of “vig” you have to cover on your bet. When you combine this with the inherent difficulty of market timing there’s basically no way selling in order to buy back in can be a positive expectation investment decision.

    3) Even if going from owning a house to not owning a house were a positive expectation gamble, which point 2) suggests it isn’t, it’s extremely high-risk, because owning one home has intrinsic risk mitigation properties. This is because if you own a home, and plan on living in it for the long haul, then you’re mostly hedged to market moves; if your house doubles in value, then so did the rest of Victoria. The same is true if it halves. You still own the same four walls you did at the same cost base, no matter what happens to the nominal value. Owning your own home is like owning an index fund in the stock market. You’ll get the market return, which over time is reliably up. Market timing has been proven not to work in the stock market, which is one of the reasons why generic index funds have crushed almost all investment managers over the past century. And the transactions costs are so much higher in real estate, meaning your probability of success is much lower yet.

    4) Let’s say for the sake of argument that Victoria is in fact presently overvalued, which is not at all clear in my mind, this does not necessarily mean that a bust is inevitable. It’s very possible, and in my opinion likely, that what would actually occur if that’s true is a flatlining of Victoria house prices until the excess valuations get eaten away by inflation. House prices are sticky; even if demand slackens, owners get used to the “new” value of their home pretty quick and tend to hang on to it and insist on getting it. Victoria doesn’t have the speculative buying that Toronto currently has. We have tons of paid-off homes owned by quiet retirees who are pretty much immune to market swings. And we have a net influx of people coming to our ocean-bound peninsula.

  27. someday we will be cool (-ish)

    You already are. Nothing wrong with Jubilee. If Oaklands went gentry Jubilee can’t be far behind.

  28. I think a lot of people are not “envious of others’ success” but resentful of how the economic system is set up to benefit those who are well off at the expense of those with less. The increase in housing prices and rents has really brought this truth home. Why should someone be able to make a million dollars tax free from selling a house – the same amount as some people make working their whole life. Keep in mind these weathy homeowners are already making a huge profit. Why should they also get to pay no tax.

  29. @ Hawk – you talkin’ ’bout my block. 1706 Kings is actually in the North Jubilee Neighourhood. BUT, it is within a couple of hundred yards of Oaklands – just across Shelbourne & about 25 years ago this area was actually part of Oaklands but then the North Jubilee Neighbourhood Association was formed & separated it from the Oaklands Neighbourhood. I am sure that there are still many maps out there that haven’t reflected that change.

    Also I live very, very close to 1772 Kings, of which a few days ago you noted the $50K slash from $750K (after being on the market about a week). Very interested in how this plays out – especially the eventual sale price.

    Perhaps a good time to ask folks here – How does one find out the final sale price? Do I just post a query here for those in the know to help with or is there a way I can find out by myself when the time comes?

    North Jubilee is a forgotten neighbourhood – 1 block away from Oaklands, 2 blocks from Oak Bay & one can easily walk to Willows Beach so all is good, although I do admit we have few architectural gems. I’m involved in our little community though & we are rejuvenating The Spirit Garden on Kings & hope to develop a chain of Pocket Parks so that people can walk North-South through the neighbourhood without having to deal with the tyranny of the two busy & loud streets – Richmond & Shelbourne. Uphill battle – so far – someday we will be cool (-ish).

    @Luke – I swear to God just about every post you make I end up saying to myself “I’m glad Luke is on the blog – I like his attitude!” I had a real Dorothy coming home to Kansas experience about Victoria – “no place like home !!!” There is so much to do here – Victoria is amazing, wonderful & will only get more interesing. I’m pro diversity & intelligent density so the future here looks positive to me. I know many would like to keep Victoria quaint so will not like the changes.

    I honestly feel that Luke is genuinely positive & I like it !!! Hawk keeps my feet on the ground & I like that too !!!

  30. Ash, only a nit picking agent would stoop to that level. It’s Oaklands, just like the pumpers call Red Barn area Oak Bay.

  31. Keep in mind “ocean trader”, That I am not saying Victoria “will” go up $500,000.00.
    I’m simply saying that there is much more room for them to go up in the next year or two.

    As long as people from Vancouver can sell their house on the west side of Vancouver for $3million dollars, then buy a beautiful house near the downtown core of Victoria ….and still put two million dollars in the bank….then you will see house prices continue to rise in Victoria.
    If Victoria were to rise another five hundred thousand dollars…. those same Vancouver people could still put one and a half million dollars in the bank or, more likely, invest in other houses and rent those out for income)
    It seems illogical to me to think otherwise.

  32. Lol, deryk houston – I think we may have a bet there! : ) We will see what one year brings.

  33. Luke,

    J.D. (Pickles Bluff is part of) is my most favourite park in Saanich. I go there all the time…even have a few books on the place!

    Love to get my own place out there. I actually enjoy the commute, gives me time to think.

  34. Leo (I do respect most of your postings)
    But I never said Victoria should be worth the same as Vancouver. Or even close.
    My point is that I believe that Victoria could still rise substantially and still be much less than Vancouver. For example: If the price of a house anywhere near downtown Victoria rose another $500,000 they would still be only HALF the price of a house in Kitsilano,Vancouver.
    That is why I would never sell my house in Victoria and start renting,,,, with the hope that prices will be cheaper any time soon.
    I don’t believe in gambling with ones principle residence. Too much to lose.
    Only time will tell who is right. But I believe that prices have still lot’s of room to move up. Talk to me in one year and you can say I was wrong or not:)

  35. “I was thinking, maybe it’s a Canadian phenomenon to target successful people?”

    Amen and amen, Luke. I spend a few years at a time in and out of Canada and I notice this every time I return. To our credit, Canadians have what may be the most egalitarian society on the planet – when people socialise here differences in income and race and professional status are almost entirely invisible. Let’s all take a bow and long may it continue.

    And yet, and yet –

    Three things always pop into my mind every time I’ve been back a week or so:

    -The rankness of Schadenfreude
    -A Gore Vidal quote: “Everytime a friend succeeds, a little something in me dies”
    -An illustration a similarly-minded friend once used: “There is a large export market for West Coast crab in Asia. Cargo planes leave Vancouver with tubs of crabs, land in Seattle to pick up more crabs and then continue on to Japan and China. Sometimes the pilots go back to check the loading before departure and they observe that the Seattle tubs have tight netting over the top but the Vancouver tubs are completely open. They of course ask for the cargo team to string nets over the Vancouver tubs for better security but the team says “there is no need, anytime a Canadian crab gets anywhere near the top the other crabs all drag him back down.”

  36. Lots of resentment in the comments today.

    Wolf – instead of directing all this anger at homeowners, why not go out and earn some more money so you can afford the house that you want? Or adjust your expectations and move to a neighbourhood that you can afford. You won’t get ahead by simply feeling entitled to the house you want.

    Hawk – my point was that people who try to time the market (such as yourself) often get burned. That’s why the house you sold is now unattainable and you’re living in someone’s suite. The best advice to any prospective homebuyers here is to buy a house that you can reasonably afford, and don’t try to time the market like Hawk.

    There are undoubtedly some people in Victoria who won the housing lottery. However, most of us had to work hard for our money and to afford the kind of house and area that we wanted for our families. Resentment of others’ success is not a very appealing trait.

  37. Wolf, you are very toxic indeed and that’s sad. Now, take your toxicity and stuff it. I will no longer respond to your vitriol other than to say I feel sorry for you.

    Here’s a link from Reddit I found interesting today: Turns out people do have trouble staying in Victoria even though they’d like to. It brings discussion on the wage issue back to light and why do employers feel they can pay less wages here than elsewhere?

    https://www.reddit.com/r/VictoriaBC/comments/6b0m2x/why_did_you_move_away_from_victoria/

  38. You are that snob but just don’t realize it. I could be baited to go on but this pretty much says it all: “I tried to get a house in Fairfield but kept getting outbid there so I had to settle for OB”. I doubt the people from the wider CRD that you meet are as angry or unhappy as you say (none of those I know are); they’re probably more angry and unhappy with how you talk down to them.

  39. If AG lives in Uplands I say… good for him/her! To Barrister who lives in that mansion in Rockland I say – way to go! Your hard work paid off well for you!

    To people who are sad about their lot in life and admonish others who have done well I say – try to think positive about what went wrong in your life and correct it moving forward. I’ve never gone through life upset about others who have done well or better than me. I celebrate their achievements!

    Local Fool – interesting about the waterfall at Mt. Work Park – another one of our many awesome parks throughout the CRD I have yet to check out. On Wednesday I’m going to check out ‘Pickles bluff’ for the first time. I’m not sure anyone is trying to bait others on here though? Just talking about success in Canada seems to be a no go zone. I don’t think Barristers’ intent, for example, about talking about his Rockland mansion was to bait anyone. I found it interesting that he was able to achieve that, and he’s probably interested in watching whats’ going on in the market because if he paid $1.6m (?) for his mansion it’s probably worth over $3m now. That’s all it is, not about ‘baiting’ anyone. You are quite right though we will all die in the end with nothing so we need to make the best of our time here. I’ve seen death and life is short so it’s just such a waste of time to be toxic. Also, why is it such a bad thing in Canada to be happy about being successful?

  40. Looking at sales today – I see the house on Moss St. in Fairfield went well over asking as I predicted… same thing that was happening last year in that well sought after ‘hood that I could not get into.

    94 Moss St – sold $175k over asking at $1,375k.

  41. Luke, not to worry … Internet Trolls Are Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Sadists

    “there is no real purpose behind their comments except to upset everyone else involved. Trolls will lie, exaggerate, and offend to get a response.” (usually going after people like you who have well-thought-out arguments, due to jealousy, like other bullies). Cue the vitriol

    Thanks for that link Vicbot – yes it is unfortunate there are people like that out there. I have met them in real life as well – people who are very sad with their own situation and feel the need to target me because I’m positive and happy. On a blog, it’s those who feel the need to descend into unsolicited unnecessary toxicity, rather than making real contributions to the blog. As I said – all one can do is feel sorry for them, and ignore them I guess.

    In case anyone else mistook my jokes about the tweed curtain, etc and took it seriously – that’s too bad. I think it’s really funny that we get a magazine in OB called ‘Tweed’. I love all area’s of the CRD and am not the snob that Wolf tried to portray me as. In fact, I tried to get a house in Fairfield but kept getting outbid there so I had to settle for OB where I found a great custom builders house in a private sale (so no competition because then it would’ve been impossible), and it was well within my means.

    I follow listings and the market because it’s very interesting to see what’s happening here at this point in time. E.g. when someone lists the Redwood house for $1.938k will it sell for that? If it does it means I’ve done very well. When the market becomes more balanced (if ever). That will probably make it less interesting to follow.

    I was thinking, maybe it’s a Canadian phenomenon to target successful people? Does this happen in the same way in the US? I know in Britain there’s much division between classes though less in than it was in the past. In Canada even the Gov’t seems to want to target success. (and I see this on greater fool blog and in real life). In my job, I travel throughout the CRD and deal with many unhappy disenfranchised folks. It’s tough at times, and I often wonder how they got where they are. They are angry, and unhappy, and so they target others and lash out in toxic ways. I try to do my best to help them out but sometimes that’s not possible. I just try to keep positive and I do find I can lift some of them out of the rut they’re stuck in.

    Maybe my contributions to this blog rub some the wrong way, but I say to them – just skip ahead to the next post or find something better to do with your time than lash out in toxicity.

  42. I tend to agree, those taking time to post on here to posture with respect to their place of residence or financial status is a bit sad, and small. There are actually a few that regularly try to be stealthy and indirect about it too, which actually makes it more obvious.

    We’re all going to end up in the same place, folks. A t-shirt I owned in the 90’s said on it, “He who dies with the most toys, still dies”. So true.

    If you own a home and/or have lots of money, good for you. Go out and enjoy your lives, rather than trying to bait others who may have greater or lesser means than you. Speaking of going out and enjoying life, I’m going to go check out the waterfall at Mt. Work today. Anyone seen it? It’s pretty great. Hoping after the recent rain it should be downright awesome. 😀

  43. Wolf,

    AG claims he does live in the Uplands but this an anonymous blog so he may well live in Gangford with a buddy and his one eyed dog.

  44. oceantrader, congrats on cashing out. Smartest move you could have done. Enjoy the care free renter lifestyle with all that cash. I’m sure you won’t regret your decision.

    As in past bubble peaks, affordability limits don’t always show up on a chart, they show up in real life where unexpected costs are hitting folks daily. Having some perfect budget laid out is never reality and can be blown to bits with even one unexpected event.

    bitterbear, agreed, those with the scars always come out the other side stronger. The arrogant like AG can always claim most are self inflicted because their ignorance and silver spoon pampered life knows nothing else. They are the ones who usually blow up the biggest.

  45. Deb, I understand a bit of your situation. Friend of ours sold their Vancouver house and bought in the US in 2006. Well you can imagine they lost 50% in their US home and missed out on the Vancouver run up. They were forced to sell in the US for medical reasons and are now renting an apt in Van. But they’ve chosen to stay in Van because of grandkids. Things can get cosy in their apt with 5 or 10 people over but no one has ever minded. They rent a storage locker.

    They decided that lifestyle was more important than sq feet. But everyone has their own needs, so there’s no right or wrong answer. I agree with oceantrader, maybe stick it out another year here.

  46. That’s gutsy, oceantrader. You don’t see that a lot. I agree with the cyclicity (can see it in stocks on various time scales) and think renting is a good option.

    Hawk, I doubt anyone here lives in the Uplands. If they did, do you really think they’d waste their time here?

  47. Bravo, Hawk. Gains are not to be counted until they are realized. Think AG was a bit tone deaf there.

  48. AG, once again you prove you are the biggest douche bag on this blog. Your number will come up one day, it’s guaranteed with arrogance of your stature.

    Unless you sold you have made zero, just like Nortel at $200 (when I sold). But then you just bought on max leverage again at the top, so that only goes to show your lack of intelligence while other Uplands homes just got slashed $450K and others being slashed daily. Enjoy the ride down.

  49. Deb, I think your wisdom does you credit. Many people here have never experienced a set-back either from without or from within. Those of us with a few battle scars have a very different perspective, dare I say, realistic perspective. Your skiis and bikes and your grandchildren tell me that you have had your priorities in the right place all along!

  50. Sorry to hear of you troubles, Deb. Wondering if you might consider renting in Victoria for awhile until the picture becomes more clear? Everything is cyclical, things are high now and it is the peak spring season. Things will very likely be quieter in the fall and if the trend continues, prices will be better with more inventory.
    If you rent you can also be in Victoria, if that is your preference, and closer to the situation. There are rental opportunities popping up all the time and it’s not like it was last year.
    I’m putting my money where my mouth is – we sold last month and will be moving to a rental for at least 6 months. My true sense is that there will be a reversion back towards more affordable housing prices and we may choose to rent for longer.
    Of course there is a chance that I’m wrong and will be sitting this out watching the market move forward without me. But I follow housing, the economy and the markets daily and am firmly in the belief that the risks of owning in Vancouver/Victoria/Toronto/Hamilton outweigh the rewards in the mid term.
    Wishing you strength and patience.

  51. The arrogant daily bean counters on here are clueless to how life really works and that shit happens.

    Hawk – shit certainly does happen, but sometimes it’s self-inflicted. Like those poor souls who sold their house just before the biggest price jump in Victoria’s history. Now they’re left priced out of the market, and living in someone’s moldy basement suite.

  52. Deb, have you considered a co-op apartment or townhouse if you are 45-55 plus and have cash to purchase? They are affordable, but they don’t appreciate much and you often can’t have pets or smoke.

    The park this one is across from is ideal for grandchild visits, there is a second bedroom and it has indoor bike storage. Plus it is deco! https://www.realtor.ca/Residential/Single-Family/18028657/7-2530-Windsor-Rd-Victoria-British-Columbia-V8S3E9

    There are also units that only require a ex. $2000 share purchase and a fee of approx $800-1000 per month. You could stay put and invest your money and use it to do things with your family instead.

    If you want to stay in Victoria more than you want to move maybe this would work for you? The Okanagan is lovely too. For me, housing cost would not be the deciding factor – I’d do with less to be closer to family.

  53. 3439 Cook St triplex slashed $40K. Almost a year’s rental income gone poof. Even the property kings are taking a hit.

  54. “Just want to say, no matter how secure you think you are when life kicks you all your pride and self assurance disappears faster than candy floss in the rain.”

    Very true Deb. The arrogant daily bean counters on here are clueless to how life really works and that shit happens. Few are immune to to the inevitable.

    You know my advice Deb, ride out this last wave of idiocy as the fool pool is running out. Look at Toronto listings have doubled within days. Imagine that happening here. Many here would jump off the Blue Bridge.

  55. “Hawk, 1706 Kings Rd is not Oaklands. There’s your problem right there! ”

    Ash, last time I looked on the map it is in Oaklands and is one or two houses off Shelbourne and Oaklands school/park within a couple of blocks. I think you have a map problem.

  56. I want to thank you all for your help and suggestions. We are not young enough nor do we want to take on a mortgage. We are looking for a long term home and having lived in Victoria for 30 years it is hard to consider leaving. What has happened to the market here while we were stuck makes me feel ill. We have gone from being able to buy a small house to looking at small apartments. We still have things (skis, bikes etc.) that make our life fun and we have grandchildren we want to visit us so it has to be a reasonable size. I think we have to consider the interior now, parts of it are beautiful and Victoria will always be just a car/ferry ride away.

    Just want to say, no matter how secure you think you are when life kicks you all your pride and self assurance disappears faster than candy floss in the rain.

  57. Victoria is much.. much less than Vancouver.

    It’s interesting you accept that the Fraser valley costs less than Vancouver but think Victoria should somehow be as much as Vancouver (or much closer)

  58. My advice for Deb is to get into the market if you possibly can. But only if you have the ability to hang on to ride out any corrections. For example: Would you be willing to take in a homestay student if you needed some extra income? Would you be willing to build in a basement suite if you needed some extra income? Would you be willing to live in the basement if you had to?
    Victoria is still one third of what it costs to buy a house in Vancouver. (A post war tear down in kitsilano …on a small lot….is still almost $3million dollars. Most news articles always quote the “Greater Vancouver” price of homes which includes a house away out in the fraser valley and so there is little comparison.) People still don’t get it that Victoria is much.. much less than Vancouver.
    My advice, if you are stretched financially, is to ignore the listed houses and look for the private sales. Make sure you have looked at similar properties and have an understanding of what a house is worth.
    This allows you to talk directly with people and avoid multiple bids. It takes the insanity out of the equation. Don’t sign anything without having a lawyer or a notary handle the paperwork and step you through the process. It is very simple and I’ve done it several times with great success.
    There are great opportunities in other communities. Buy what you can afford. Don’t get stuck on one idea….one area if it is unrealistic of an idea. For example: I’d love to live in a penthouse suite overlooking the park in Manhatten……. but I could never afford it:)
    Hope this helps.

  59. Deb

    No one has any clue what is going to happen to prices. They are all just guesses. You have to look at your personal financial/family situation
    and make sure this is the right time for you. Hope things work out.

  60. DEB: It sounds like you’ve hit a few rough patches in the past few years and sorry to hear about that. Make sure you’re happy with your decision. No matter at what phase you are in your life, be financially healthy. You’ll thank yourself later. This may mean nothing to you, but it may put things into perspective. My friend is now caring for his elderly grandfather. Grandfather requested his kids to sell the house because he can’t take of himself, let alone the home. He said it’s just a house. I think that’s a very strong statement – it’s just a house. So perhaps you have to make some some concessions to be in Victoria. Big deal. We can’t take our home with us when it’s our time to go. Put value on you, your family. Perhaps most folks here will disagree with my opinion, but sorry, it’s how I see things. I’m curious as to what prompted you to think about entering the market at this time though.

  61. @Deb, “Should we wait a little longer to buy in this our favourite town or should we buy in our second best area (the interior)?”

    It really depends on your priorities, and I think you might be limiting your choices to only 2, when you have other options.

    eg., if being near the ocean is more important than anything else, and you’re secure in your job prospects, then stay here, but why not (a) buy a condo or townhouse, or (b) buy outside of town in Langford, or (c) buy a house closer to town that you intend to stay in for 20 years.

    If you do (a) or (b), and the market goes down 20-30%, then you’ll lose less in your lower priced home, and possibly be able to “move up” into a higher priced home that’s gone down more in absolute terms. If the market goes up, then at least you’ve dealt with your first priority.

    As others have said, it also depends on your age, because if you’re in your 30s, then all options are open to you.

  62. Luke, not to worry … Internet Trolls Are Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Sadists
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists

    “there is no real purpose behind their comments except to upset everyone else involved. Trolls will lie, exaggerate, and offend to get a response.” (usually going after people like you who have well-thought-out arguments, due to jealousy, like other bullies). Cue the vitriol 🙂

    Agree with your descriptions of the key corridors for density in Victoria.

  63. The stupidity of the exam and the negative economic effects are crazy…….even crazier when you consider there is zero evidence of any sort of problem requiring an exam in the first place.

    My mind still boggles at why no media ever picked it up. Seems like such an easy story to run, interview a bunch of nice wanna be home builders putting in honest work but getting fucked by the government, do the most superficial research to determine there was never a problem with owner built homes to start with, raise question about corruption, super juicy story. Meanwhile they run all kinds of nonsense on the real estate market just to fill some space.

  64. @Deb “I really need advise from those who are willing to give it.”

    The best advice is probably to not take any ‘advice’ from this blog. Do what you think.

    I’ll offer my view though: I buy a home for the long term. If I’m happy to live there for the next 20 years it doesn’t matter what direction the market goes. If it appreciates, great. If it depreciates, I probably still saved a lot of money on rent and had a stable place to live for 20 years. In the long term I’ll probably come out ahead. The decision to buy a home (which one and where) is more about what feels right (and meets needs) and less about the market/cost of the home, assuming you have sufficient resources.

  65. @ Deb

    Tough situation. Like you I love Victoria but I like the interior (just got back from a trip). As a family we can make the same in either location, but we choose to live here. We could be mortgage free in the interior if we sold now, but instead we choose to stay here.

    If you want to stay here I’d stay out of the market for now. Stuff is in a frenzy and according to a realtor friend it has even spread to the western communities (which I haven’t been following, so I’ll take his word). Around the beginning of the year I would have advised to buy out there to get some value for your money.

    I think Bitterbear has the right perspective. If I was young and planned on staying put I’d probably risk buying in Victoria. You can ride out a correction if you plan on staying here a long time / forever. If I was old and would have to take on a big mortgage to buy here, I’d probably favor my financial freedom over top city to live in. YMMV but Victoria isn’t nice enough to make me risk my retirement.

  66. Haha, don’t feed the trolls Luke. Perhaps you’d be able to relax and pick up on sarcasm if you weren’t so leveraged and incessantly checking listings (considering you’re a happy homeowner). My guess is you scraped by to buy a crap-box and are worried about its worth relative to the neighborhood in the long term. Oak Bay is the same as all the other neighborhoods in town, I have no issues with it. I do enjoy trolling some ‘holier than thou’ folks who live there though, it’s like shooting fish in a barrel. 🙂

    Don’t worry about my lot in life – I have a pretty nice package. Don’t need to tell everyone about it.

  67. The HPO killed the garden suite…. not quite as catchy as video killed the radio star….

    I am seeing the effects of the BC/Housing HPO in my day to day business.

    Client recently purchased a 1/2 acre lot in North Saanich with a 60 day completion/possession Wants to be ready to submit the building permit on completion; however, only obstacle to this is BC Housing won’t allow him to register for exam until his name is on the title. Now he is going to have to carry the lot vacant 2-3 months while going through the exam BS because he isn’t on title until completion.

    Client bought home in James Bay, corner lot, wants to do garden suite, City of Victoria wants BC Housin Authorization (aka exam). Local well known design firm also wants $8,000 for drawings….the garden suite may be killed.

    Still receiving around 5 emails per day….one from a couple of hours ago

    “Thank you for your quick reply. Im a structural engineer and would fail the structural related questions because I don’t memorize all the regulation requirements but rather refer to my references all the time. I came across your material and realized I would fail the exam if I don’t study diligently.”

    The stupidity of the exam and the negative economic effects are crazy…….even crazier when you consider there is zero evidence of any sort of problem requiring an exam in the first place.

  68. Actually Wolf… I’d bet it’s your life that’s really shitty. Otherwise you wouldn’t have to sink to such levels of toxicity and vitriol towards happy successful young people like me and thats what’s perplexing indeed. I bet you missed the upturn in the RE market didn’t you? Too bad, but move on. That’s why you have to bash OB and our 32% rise in RE over last year. Of me I bet… jealous. How sad for you I do feel sorry for people like you.

  69. Weaver’s new non-negotiable demand is for official party status

    I’d ask for that too in his shoes.

    and a slice of taxpayer $$.

    Do you mean the additional funding that comes with official party status? Also seems reasonable to me. He is not accepting corporate or union donations so seems a reasonable thing to create some basis for advocacy.

  70. Thanks for this link. I’m aware of how difficult it is to pass the home builder exam….a catch 22 for sure.

  71. Deb, I would say it depends on how old you are, how many years you have to recover from a downturn and where you want to retire. You might love Victoria now but if you are 67 years old, with sore feet, an aching back and 10 grandkids you might not want to keep working to pay off a mortgage.

  72. I’m sorry Leo – could you expand on the province killing the garden suite initiative? I thought things were moving forward on that front in Victoria? Perhaps I missed some news…its something we are considering while looking for a new property.

  73. Deb: if you like it here more than in the interior then you should probably buy here because life is short and you’d be in your “favourite town”. The only consideration would be whether the house you’d be buying satisfies your needs. I imagine you might be able to get more house for your buck elsewhere. That’s the main tradeoff. No one can really predict what’s going to happen to the market here versus anywhere else so if you’re ready go ahead and buy where you prefer to live.

  74. @Luke. Fully agreed re approach to density. I am actually hopeful that Victoria gets it even if everyone loves to bash Lisa. Lots of positive developments recently. The garden suite change was a good one it’s not the city’s fault that the province killed it.

  75. @ Luke

    There’s a reason why this and other crap boxes like Cranmore don’t sell – they are complete crap boxes! Really simple.

    Nah, they’re not crap boxes, they’re prime building lots. The last six houses to sell on the 26-2800 block Lincoln Road were torn down. If Cranmore doesn’t sell at the current price it is because lots starting at $1,100,000 for a 50 footer (two currently available on Musgrave) are a bit ahead of the market.

  76. I really need advise from those who are willing to give it. We had a beautiful home back in 2012 but due to so many personal problems we had to sell. Since then our bad luck continued and we have been unable to think about getting back into the market until now. Should we wait a little longer to buy in this our favourite town or should we buy in our second best area (the interior)?

  77. Oaklands townhouse slashed $50K at 1706 Kings Rd , B. I thought the bully bids were kicking ass in that hood ?

    2497 Sinclair Rd slashed $50k with sweeping views of Cadboro Bay and Ten Mile Point. The tide must be turning.

    Keep building the condos, as the price slashes keep coming.

  78. I also think parking lots and sprawl if you say American city. The ones I love are full of high rises like Portland, SanFran, Seattle, New York. High Rises can harmonize in Victoria if done right. James Bay not so much but Uptown/Mayfair/Hudson should go up. Old town no way. Bear Mountain…absolutely ridiculous.

  79. Found some interesting reports from the US from 2005 where they were talking about record low inventories, ie., “Historic Low National Months Supply of Homes on the Market”
    https://web.archive.org/web/20051126044138/http://www.realtor.org/research.nsf/pages/anti-bubblereports

    eg., the one focused on Phoenix, AZ “The local market is more likely to appreciate at an above-normal rate because of the strong job growth and from steadily rising number of retirees.”

    Also agree, there are good designs of high-rise buildings that incorporate community gathering & shopping places that encourage a very walkable lifestyle. Other examples along with Europe are places like Manly, Australia.

    Numbers hack, how do you think we could lobby gov’t for more of those changes?

  80. “He’s not going to get the policies through imo. He has a good chance to get donations banned. He also has an opportunity to push hard for proportional representation. He has the balance of power but pushed too far nothing will go forward, government will stall, and an election will be called. This is a choose your strategic battles moment.” – totoro

    Weaver’s new non-negotiable demand is for official party status and a slice of taxpayer $$. While not necessarily a bad idea, so much for his stance as a different kind of politician.

    While i’d kind of like a change of government I actually hope that the Greens cozy up with the Libs and permanently sully their brand.

  81. To me, Victoria is laid out more like a European city than an American one – and plenty of Euro cities have high-rises, and esp. bike lanes. Many of our streets are narrow and our blocks short, that’s why we have deckers in our transit system. Streets that constantly change names and are not in a ‘grid’ pattern are not typical for North American cities. I’m just starting to get used to the new dual directional lanes on Pandora (not sure why they didn’t install to flow in the same direction as traffic but I guess it’s ok b/c they’re separated – hopefully no one gets mowed down there).

    Re. High rises – We need to be careful where we put them though – not too close to the waterfront or mowing down historic buildings on roads like Johnson St. near the bridge. Keep them downtown or in Vic West or perhaps more in James Bay to replace aging 3-storey walk ups. Taller is ok, esp. if placed correctly. We could also have some really funky designs on high rises – like London does – but careful not to reflect all the heat down onto the street! We could have high rises that kept the ‘historic’ theme and hopefully were not too boxy or boring designs. In Asia, many of the high rises have cool light shows. We need to be careful not to fall into Vancouver’s trap of ‘ghost’ condo’s owned by absent investors that result in empty condo communities like Coal Harbour. Careful to avoid too much transient rentals in condo’s. Keep them for residences only. There also should be a percentage of each building set aside for subsidized housing. Can it all be done right?

    We also need more alternative dense types of housing, like row housing along key corridors fanning out from the downtown core like Quadra St, Fort St, Yates, Begbie/Shelbourne, Burnside, Gorge, Douglas, etc. Esquimalt is ripe for gentrification, esp. along Esquimalt Rd.

    I’ll take a line from Telus ads and say for Victoria, if it’s all done right, I think, ‘the future looks friendly!’ It’s a good thing things took a little longer here to get going because we can learn lessons from all the other places that made mistakes. Let’s hope our leaders/planners are that smart…

  82. What the problem with condos. That what you build when you run out of space. Keep those coming and make them taller.

  83. Smart cities are spending money on bike paths. Keep them coming. Get people out of their cars.

  84. @totoro
    Good points in terms of the leader/system analysis. Much to digest, but at least there are intelligent points to contemplate.

    @Group
    Been thinking about how we could solve the housing problem in Victoria. The world is awash in money and much of it ends up in RE. So in orders to assist FIRST TIME BUYERS in Victoria, what do you think of this proposed solution?:

    1/ Developers are allowed 20%+ more space for all NEW builds MFDs immediately
    – 20% of the units will have to be for first time buyers
    – 2 bedroom units will have to be at least 1000 sq. ft
    – 1 bedroom units will have to be at least 600 sq. ft
    – project will have to be at least 5 stories in height

    2/ on top of what the province gives in PTT / 1st buyer loan for down payment
    – the price for the 1st time buyer on the 20% of the units will be sold at:
    50% DISCOUNT from the market price.

    3/ the city/municipality/province would BACK STOP the 50% with the following concessions from the 1st time buyer:
    a/ PLUS 1% to 2% on a standard 5 year mortgage rate w/ 25 year term
    b/ AND/OR 1% additional PROPERTY TAX on the assessed market value on an annual basis
    c/ 1st time homeowner can sell at ANYTIME, BUT any capital gains (based on a cost of the 100% purchase price) would be divided on a declining scale with the government over a period of 25 years. For example, if you sell within 3 years, you get 6% of the cap gains, 5 years 20% of the cap gains, after 25 years, you get 100%…etc…
    d/ property must not exceed a certain value, etc, $600K for 2bdrm, $350K for 1bdrm.
    e/ you must RESIDE in your new property

    4/ In order to qualify for this:
    a/ you would have had to been a RESIDENT OF VICTORIA for at least 5 years
    b/ you are a first time homebuyer
    c/ priority be given based on the time of residency in the City
    d/ priority given to families and seniors, after length of residency in the City

    5/ Risks
    a/ This model is a hybrid model of what I have seen work in other cities. The government could be burdened with a lot of debt if prices go down.

    6/ what this solves
    a/ more housing stock on the same land
    b/ gets people who really want to be in the market, in the market.
    c/ provides parri passu upside/downside to all parties
    d/ would not be impossible to implement 🙂

    Being conservative in my political views in regards to the economy, I just realized that the world over is non stop printing money. Hence my stab with a socialist slant on this issue.

    The reason being is that credit expansion has gone from $50Trillion to $100Trillion in the last decade. This might not mean much to the average Joe, but in the world of finance, you have essentially $2 chasing everything that was worth $1, 10 years ago. This credit is generally looking for safe havens, and Canada is one of them. So it might be $3 chasing everything that was worth $1, 1o years ago. Guess what? They are still borrowing and printing, and that does not bode well for affordability IMHO.

    OK, just some food for thought.

  85. @ Chris Kershaw – On the other hand, median days on Market continue to drop. For SFH in May it is 10. That is lower than April when it was 11 and the lowest it has been since I have data (10 years for DOM).

  86. @ Chris Kershaw Yes there are various signs that things are starting to slow. The judgement of “ludicrously hot” is based on the Months of inventory which is still stupidly low. I will add a secondary piece to that based on how it is changing to indicate heating/cooling.

  87. And I don’t see a lot of American cities building bike networks. We are on a totally different path here

  88. You’ll find that high rises exist around the world. When I think American city I think endless sprawl not high rises.

  89. Dogs are banned from Willows? Yessss! Cats still allowed though right? Have we done dogs vs. cats here lately?

  90. I notice there are quite a few listings now with price reductions. Not quite to ‘ludicrously hot’ any more.

  91. You’re quite right Wolf from two posts ago. Not rich enough to afford a decent house a few blocks from Dallas Rd like I would’ve liked. Oh well, life is full of compromises isn’t it? Like moving to Halifax owning four houses for the price of one in Victoria and dining on lobster! Hmmm… wait a minute… So, I had to settle for OB and have to now drive the whole ten minutes to Dallas Rd as my dog is now banned at Willows beach. It’s a hard life,but someone has to live it…

  92. This must be a sensitive topic, my last comment is deleted?

    You left your last comment on the previous article

  93. “enjoy the sunshine at Dallas Rd for me”

    Dallas Rd? That’s not in Oak Bay. What are you, poor?

  94. Condo listings are up again and their prices have been slashed all over the place, too many to list off.

    gwac, your whiny talk that the market can’t tank like it did for you in the 90’s just makes you look like a bigger greedy tool. Keep the faith like all good pumpers do, the price slashes are increasing by the hour, just like Home Capital. 😉

  95. James, I wouldn’t really call that leveling off – the ratios are still climbing fairly quickly, it’s just not quite as rapidly as say, 03 to 10. Lowering interest rates creates a greater demand for debt, and as more people go into more and more of it, the demand for it will eventually wane. We’re not in a deleveraging cycle yet, so it will keep climbing until then.

    As for prices rising faster and faster, as speculative demand rises, you can then use large amounts of equity to buy more homes to garner greater exposure to the rising market.

    One possible explanation, anyways.

  96. Question: People have been conflating the rise in Canadian Consumer debt with the rise in housing prices; ie: people are paying larger sums for housing & thus have more debt. Why has the household debt as % of disposable income then leveled off after the major rise in house prices?

  97. Bitterbear, be happy to help you find that new home in Calgary!
    Never heard of Home Capital in Calgary, perhaps they go by some other name west of the Rockies?

  98. Re wages in Victoria. In my profession low wages are across the province. If I take that job in Calgary, I will make 44% more than I can make in BC. And comparable pension and benefits. And I have colleagues whereas here my colleagues’ jobs have been eliminated. And I’m only an hour away from some of the best skiing in the world. And I can buy a house.

    You’re right Luke, why on earth am I still here?

  99. The whole point of going to post secondary is to find a good job, isn’t it?

    No. It isn’t.

  100. Yes it’s true Totoro, about fair comment, and you did agree with the donations issues.

    But the conflict of interest allegations haven’t been resolved and are still being debated.

    The same person (Fraser) that decided Clark wasn’t in a “conflict of interest” was himself in a conflict of interest! He’s made donations to the Liberals & his son is working for her as a Deputy Minister & is a personal friend of hers. Fraser actually recused himself from a decision in BC Rail for these exact same family/donation reasons, but not from this one.

    The private sector wouldn’t be allowed to do such things with an ethics complaint.

    In fact lawers for Fraser said he was “immune from judicial review” and so the BC Supreme Court had to rule that they “didn’t have the jurisdiction” – based on existing laws – which the BC gov’t & Clark have the power to change.

    https://thetyee.ca/News/2017/01/25/Court-Wont-Overturn-Conflict-Ruling/

    “Lawyers for Fraser — John Hunter and Trevor Bant — filed a six-page response on Nov. 28 that argued the case should be dismissed on various grounds, including that the commissioner’s opinions are “protected by legislative privilege and immune from judicial review.”

    “If the court is right in how it’s interpreting the law, it shows there’s a need to overhaul “the whole government ethics law,” he added.”

    “The ruling means the commissioner and the legislature are essentially unaccountable for their decisions about whether someone has violated the ethics law,” Conacher said. ”

    “Conacher said the province’s political parties should rewrite the Conflict of Interest Act so that it’s clear the commissioner’s rulings are binding on politicians and to allow anyone to appeal any decision the commissioner makes to the courts.

    “The Commissioner’s admission in 2012 that there was sufficient perception of bias to recuse himself from ruling on a complaint concerning the premier is inconsistent with the commissioner’s refusal to recuse himself … in 2016”

  101. Luke, I haven’t left because I have teenagers in high school and I’ve been stuck in a lease for my business but that will change very soon! Can’t wait!

    Actually, Halifax is on my list of possibilities.

  102. How can that be… it is assessed at 580k – went for 395k over assessed.

    I was more surprised by how low the assessment is than how high the selling price is. A million is a lot for a half duplex for sure, but I actually don’t think it’s out of line with other sales in that area this year (e.g. 2 bed bungalow with finished basement going for 800k, 2 bed rancher for 750k, etc.).

    Problem is, how do you price decent new construction like Holly in an area like Oaklands where most of the housing stock is 1940s or older?

  103. My voice recognition program ends up with some strange typos and I am sorry for not proofing.

  104. Just planted roses in the garden. Rather satisfying on the whole. need to get some mulch though. For some reason mulch always makes me think if something a cow has been chewing on.

    Beautiful day out there but need to sit down after digging 18 inch wholes (digging seems to be a lot harder than when I was twenty).

    Hope all of you get a bit of a chance to be outside.

  105. Hawk keep living in your crash dream land.

    In that land you get to post price slashes and dooms day articles. It’s a happy place for you. It allows you to pretend you live in the oakbay hotel.

  106. Owning a home isn’t credibility, and denying the major price slashes and rising inventory and credit tightening with massive implications with zero facts to refute it isn’t either. The subject is where the market is going , not where it’s been.

  107. I can only dream to have the credibility of someone who has been wrong for 10 years.

    Luke good point.

  108. gwac, you have no facts to refute, just slagging = no credibility. Just like Christy Clark and your wasted vote.

  109. Correction earlier – 1849 Gonzales Ave is in Victoria… not OB. Sorry about that – the border between OB and Vic is sometimes hard to define, esp. down in that area south of Oak Bay Ave where it deviates off Foul Bay Rd.

    How much impact on Victoria does Home Capital have? I’d bet not much, I’d bet more in TO, but still not huge there. What do others think?

    Most people borrow mortgages from Canada’s big six banks, or HSBC, and not places like Home Capital.

    Do we have any detailed stat’s on how many mortgages Home Capital might have in Victoria? Probably not.

    Gwac – As for supporting free post secondary education – that’s great, but from my experience seeing that in action – in the UK it didn’t work all that well – people didn’t appreciate it. People never appreciate things that are just ‘given’ to them. So, the UK introduced a new system, where people only have to pay back tuition fees if they find a good job, and only what they can afford over a long period of time (instead of just getting post secondary for free as they did before the 2000’s). This is better than Canada’s system where here they’re charged interest rates, etc, weather or not they find a good job (and nowaday’s many don’t). The whole point of going to post secondary is to find a good job, isn’t it?

    Anyway, enough computer time – out to enjoy the sunshine at Dallas Rd for me 😉

  110. The price slashes just keep on coming. Nice place in Cordova Bay at 4902 Alamida Cres slashed $100k.

    Another prime Golden Head home, slashed $110K at 4463 Tremblay Dr. I guess with the Chinese money being choked off they’ve stopped coming here despite Tony’s TV bits.

    Quite a few others with small price slashes in prime areas that are hardly worth changing for, guess they just looking for attention in a slowing market.

  111. people have the right to judge a leader without it being scapegoating.

    Of course they do but they don’t actually get an unrestrained right to say or write anything though, fair comment has its limits in law and I’m suggesting even without the law don’t do any service to encourage service in public office by making patently unfair comments.

    The difference between fair comment and scapegoating (which can also be slander) is, well, fairness.

    If what you are saying is true and you have facts to back it up good – public figures put themselves into the public eye. If not, and you are assigning blame without a factual basis, not so good and this is why things like defamation are illegal.

    Of course the rules on defamation of public figures are slightly different because the do open themselves up to public comment on a regular basis so they have to show knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard for the truth by the author/speaker. Regular folks just have to show a false statement damaging to a person’s reputation without the knowledge or reckless disregard bit.

    And ultimately public opinion plays out in the democratic voting process.

    I agreed in my comments that the donations and salary issue is a personal leader and government ethics issue. It just wasn’t deemed a conflict of interest. I’d say some criticism of that falls well within fair comment.

    It is scapegoating, imo, though when you say things like this:

    She broke the law to disenfranchise our kids.

    No, she personally did not break the law at the time. She is the leader of a government that made a decision that was later found to be unlawful. She had a role in this dispute, but litigation in government doesn’t happen because the leader dictates it. There are a whole host of reasons and advisers involved and a reason to bring that legislation in in the first place.

    And the dispute was not that simple either. Nan stated:

    By definition the liberals broke the law. Not only that but after the first ruling, when it was clear she broke the law, she just kept on breaking the law, wasting resources and wasting time for what was a virtually certain outcome… By definition, her legislation was illegal because it was found unconstitutional (3 times).

    In actual fact, the dispute was anything but simple or virtually certain in outcome and was not upheld three times. I went back and checked the case and the Province actually won at the BCCA level (first appeal). That court found the legislation was constitutional in a 4:1 majority. The union appealed and the SCC overturned the BCCA decision.

  112. safer to ship by pipeline than by rail.

    Depends what you’re shipping. Bitumen isn’t actually very flammable, and if they removed the dilbit(or not mix it in the first place) then its actually very difficult to light. The Lac Meganitic cars actually contained light Oil, not Oils Sands Bitumen.

  113. gwac, everytime I post the new facts of cracks in the housing market you and AG lose your shit. Can’t imagine what it will be like when the real tanking comes soon as credit lending crisis deepens, and shuts out the high risk borrowers that drove this market to extreme overvaluations.

    Home Capital warns its failure would have significant ‘knock-on effects’ in the mortgage market

    “Home Capital Group Inc. said it’s seeking new sources of funding to counter a run on deposits and warned that the failure of the Canadian lender would have significant “knock-on effects” in the broader mortgage market.”

    “A company failure would have knock-on effects for the market and for the so-called alternative mortgage customers who can’t get loans from the major commercial banks, the company said.”

    http://business.financialpost.com/news/fp-street/home-capital-warns-its-failure-would-have-significant-knock-on-effects-in-the-mortgage-market

  114. Like

    I am a conservative who supports the BC liberals. I believe the government needs a proper social infrastructure basis to keep all people healthy, educated and employed while maintaining an economy to incentivize people to work hard and create jobs and keep a large portion of their pay check. I think 15 dollars within 2 years and 20 with 7 is appropriate. Need to keep the masses satistified. I think free or cheap university or college trades is appropriate. It is good to have an educated population to grow an economy. Total conservatism no longer works.

  115. Gwac-

    Re. wages… I think you’ll find on that Reddit thread people talking about that issue. But, many have traded out the quality of wages possibly found elsewhere for the better quality of life here. It’s worth it! Plus, now that Vancouver and TO are so expensive – even better wages there don’t cut it – so many are saying forget it I’ll just move somewhere nicer. Victoria’s always had an issue with lower than average wages partly because employers know people will put up with that because of the better quality of life. It’s unfortunate, but that’s the way things are. How to change it? I don’t know, they will keep paying as little as possible. Unless one has a union job where wages are set… Interesting you are a Liberal supporter, but yet support the $15/hr min. Personally I think $15/hr is barely enough to live on, and the current min. wage totally inadequate.

    Another comment by someone making crap wages elsewhere and moving here for crap wages was ‘I might as well be somewhere nice’. Why live in Edmonton if you are making crap wages anyway?

  116. I think, people may be waiting to see what the final results of the election will be, and we will continue to see a slowdown in sales until that becomes more clear.

    I find it curious that so many people are making comments like this. One of the things that’s been a relatively recent phenomenon is how the US stock market seems to respond more to what Janet or Donald says than anything else – in other words, its performance is more affected by rhetoric rather than raw economic data. But investors are making this more of a trend, so it does behave exactly this way.

    Personally, I think that’s unfortunate, because it seems to have a role in decoupling valuations from their underlying real worth. Now some folks here in BC are doing the same thing vis-a-vis houses and politics.

    "Housing prices will begin rising again if the liberals hold the balance."

    or:

    "Housing prices will fall if the NDP or Greens get in."

    When people are betting on house prices in a manner like this – something is off balance IMO, because people are no longer focusing on the real metrics that underlie house prices.

  117. Luke

    Great comment.

    Lived a lot of places. Been to a lot of places with work. Really no better place to live when you look at the whole package. Only complaint is the quality of Jobs and pay for people. We need to raise the min wage to 15 dollars over the next 2 years. We also need to find a way to find away to bring better jobs here.

  118. Regarding political leadership: people have the right to judge a leader without it being scapegoating.

    Leaders of any business are held accountable for ethics violations. You see it all the time with Boards or company employees judging the performance of a CEO or their direct boss. Performance reviews allow for this.

    Look at Uber’s CEO under fire for his handling of personnel issues & an argument with a driver.

    It’s not just nan’s opinion, there are lot of critics of the way Clark has handled conflicts of interest, eg., see articles in NY Times, Global, etc …

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/13/world/canada/british-columbia-christy-clark.html?_r=0&referer
    “Personal enrichment from the handouts of wealthy donors, some of whom have paid tens of thousands of dollars to meet with her at private party fund-raisers? No conflict of interest here, according to a pair of rulings last year by the province’s conflict-of-interest commissioner — whose son works for Ms. Clark …

    “In nine years as British Columbia’s conflict of interest commissioner, Paul Fraser said he has never found any government official to be in violation of the province’s Conflict of Interest Act. Mr. Fraser has donated to Ms. Clark’s political party, and so has his son, John Paul Fraser, who worked on Ms. Clark’s election campaign and now serves in her cabinet as the deputy minister for government communications and public engagement.”

    “Unlike many other provinces in Canada, British Columbia has no limits on political donations. Wealthy individuals, corporations, unions and even foreigners are allowed to donate large amounts to political parties there. Critics of the premier and her party, the conservative British Columbia Liberal Party, say the provincial government has been transformed into a lucrative business, dominated by special interests that trade donations for political favors, undermining Canada’s reputation for functional, consensus-driven democracy.

    “What it says to people is money talks and votes don’t,” said Dermod Travis, the executive director of IntegrityBC”

    http://globalnews.ca/news/3198375/critics-say-christy-clark-will-still-be-in-conflict-even-after-rejecting-party-stipend/
    “Clark will still get the party’s money because she’s requested her stipend be replaced with a system where she will be reimbursed by the Liberal party for her expenses. But Conacher says the money will still be coming from donors who have paid to attend Liberal events and rub shoulders with the premier. “It does nothing to stop the unethical, undemocratic influence of big money in B.C. politics.”

  119. Thought I’d get to this price reduction before Hawk…

    Another crap box reduced in OB – 679 Island Rd. This time down to $1,245k

    There’s a reason why this and other crap boxes like Cranmore don’t sell – they are complete crap boxes! Really simple.

    2127 Fair St. is new, but poorly built (I looked at the other home by the same builder – very poorly built), and ‘fish bowl’ living in the extreme. No yard, and strata. I couldn’t believe it when the other home in that four home cul-de-sac sold for near $1.6m plus GST.

    Here’s a reduction that doesn’t appear to be a complete crap box – but is on a busy corner… 1849 Gonzales Ave in OB. down $30k to $899k.

    I think, people may be waiting to see what the final results of the election will be, and we will continue to see a slowdown in sales until that becomes more clear.

  120. Perusing ‘Reddit’ recently and I found 96 comments on this recent thread: Many descriptions of why people love Victoria! It was a refreshing read… https://www.reddit.com/r/VictoriaBC/comments/6alhgc/why_do_you_live_in_victoria/

    Turns out there are other people who like me here, who really appreciate it here as well. I’ve done big city living in London, UK; and Vancouver. I’ve done small town living up island in Qualicum Beach. I’ve found that this is the happy medium without the big problems you’ll get in big cities, like crime and extreme traffic, but with almost all the amenities you could want. Talking about small towns that are cheaper like Nelson doesn’t cut it – they are small and lack amenities and accessibility – therefore of course they are cheaper. Take a look around Canada people, and you quickly realize, most of this country (esp. east of Rockies) isn’t all that great a place to live. This is one place for many reasons that is! This is why it’s becoming so expensive for housing here. And, unlike TO, there is no bubble to burst here… TO has hugely different dynamics at play.

    I seem to get the feeling that some people on this blog don’t fully appreciate Victoria. So I ask, why do you still live here then or if you intend to leave then why do you still remain? Why not move elsewhere in Canada? Why not now? I wonder if this is because you’ve lived here most, or all, of your lives? Feeling stuck? If you had lived elsewhere in Canada, then you might appreciate it here more. If you leave, like others, you could very likely end up returning.

    Compare cities of the same size – in Canada – and you will find no comparables. Ex… Halifax has housing costs about 1/4 of Victoria, and is almost exactly the same size, on the ocean, with a great university and Naval yard, and is a government town – why don’t you move there then? I think you know the answer…
    http://www.metronews.ca/news/halifax/2017/04/18/halifax-housing-prices-three-per-cent-below-national-average.html

  121. Hawk

    Something tells me AG and I will be ok….thanks for the thoughts and concerns. It means the world to me.

  122. Bitterbear:

    What you are saying makes sense assuming you dont have to be in the city for work.My daydream was a horse farm or at least some acreage out in the Caledon hills outside Toronto. Unfortunately the years got away from me and being close to a major medical facility became a priority.

    But everyone is different, I just liked horses better than most people.

  123. gwac and AG will be losing their shit soon too. 😉

    Toronto Real Estate Agents Are Losing Their S**T Over These Charts

    Record Number Of New Detached Listings

    “New detached listings are hitting the market at a much higher rate than usual, and it rightfully brings up some questions. April saw 11,863 new detached listings, a more than 50% increase from the same month last year. Last month saw 9,012 new listings, which was also an increase of 28% from the same month last year. To be clear, both numbers are higher than any monthly year over year increase observed in the past 5 years. So yeah, it’s a lot of listings.”

    https://betterdwelling.com/city/toronto/toronto-real-estate-agents-losing-st-charts/

  124. Hawk

    Hawk I just posted the video a few days ago because I was shocked to see Victoria there. I have really no opinion on their assessment.

    Victoria market will belong to the bears when we hit 5000 listing. We are a few thousand away.

  125. Nelson is nice to visit, but it’s full of hippies and there’s nowhere decent to eat. You’re also stuck there in the winter when the roads aren’t safe and half the flights get cancelled.

  126. Last time I looked gwac, Christies are salesmen, nothing more. They spin when they are desperate for sales and trying to justify over valued markets as explained by every financial entity in Canada and internationally.

    AKA used car salesmen in more expensive lease cars and suits. Sounds like the bizz you are in, working the boards to keep the flock’s faith up.

  127. Barrister, I am with Local Fool on this. As soon as I’m able, I’m heading for the hills. For half of the cost of owning a box here, I can own 3 baths, 4 bedrooms and 5 acres in Shawnigan, Cowichan, Lantzville, Courtney, Campbell River, Chemainus, Qualicum, Parksville, Roberts Creek, Sechelt, Pender Harbour, Pemberton, Revelstoke, Nelson, Cranbrook, Valemont and that’s just in BC.

    I don’t diss people who love Victoria, but I don’t see the value in it for me personally. Too far away from skiing, the water is too cold for swimming, too windy for rowing, too many cars, too many people, houses are too close together, too old and too expensive and there are too many smug rich people. Just my preference. Not trying to start a flame war.

  128. If I was in the market now it would be up island or Nelson area. 500k will buy a lot of vacations away from the snow or toys to play in the snow. Holly st takes the cake….

  129. Local Fool:

    So where would you buy? For fairness work on the assumption that you only have Canadian citizenship. Also are you talking about investing or actually living in that better place.

  130. Luxury is being redefined.

    If luxury is now taken to mean irrational and foolish, yes.

    If I was spending a million on a house, I can think of far better places to buy than here. 🙂

  131. Luxury is being redefined. Look at 1508 Holly st. A half duplex for pretty much a million bucks. Google street view tells me that I would never have seen this residence on life styles of the rich and famous in the 80’s. Now? I guess so….

  132. Hawk has found all the price slashes this morning. He will keep on top of any more today. He has debunked Christies data. He has analyzed Torontos listings and extrapolated them to Victoria. All that before 8:15. Been a busy little beaver this morning Hawk.

  133. For those thinking this inventory level is going to never change just look at Toronto GTA via Garth. 3200 listings in the last 24 hours. Seen it here before and it will happen again, and probably sooner than you think with Canadian banks down graded.

    Christies rated that based on 2016 sales. Looking at 2017 luxury sales I think it’s bunk.

  134. Makes the measure not great

    Yes. I thought so too. Luxury to me means upscale amenities that are out of reach to the mid-range homeowner which is not a 1.4 million dollar (can) home in TO. In Victoria neither.

  135. @totoro. That was my conclusion as well. Makes the measure not great, given many $1M+ properties are anything but luxury, especially in Toronto.

  136. Luxury Thermometer Methodology: Six factors for each primary and second-home resort housing market were synthesized to assess the ‘health’ of the $1M+ market.

    Seems like the thermometer used the million dollar cut off while some of the other data assesses price in relation to the market which means luxury could start at 750k.

  137. 1 – 1508 Holly St. in Oaklands. Sold for 975K on day 1 (ask: 898).

    How can that be… it is assessed at 580k – went for 395k over assessed.

  138. This is driving me a little batty if I’m interpreting this report correctly.
    Could someone please read this:
    http://luxurydefined.christiesrealestate.com/hubfs/Christies_Real_Estate_LuxuryDefined_Whitepaper_2017r.pdf

    Especially the executive summary, the first page “At a Glance: Defining Luxury Real Estate”, and the methodology for the Luxury Thermometer.

    They first define a “luxury home” with variable price cutoffs based on region (ex “under $1 million in Costa Rica to above $10 million in Monaco”). Then they go on and define all their measures based on “million dollar plus”, indicating the cutoff is the same for every market. See methodology under the Luxury Thermometer and the research notes at the end of the report.

    So, the question is, for the Luxury Thermometer specifically, did they:

    1. Use the variable price cutoffs per market and evaluate the activity of properties above that or
    2. Did they use a fixed $1M cutoff for all markets
  139. Couple more price slashes this morning in James Bay and Fairfield under a million. Nice places too. Bully bids are few and far between versus the price slashes in prime areas. More hype.

  140. “I see home capital is alive and well selling off assets and the stock going up.”\

    Alive and well gwac ? It’s down 12% because it’s about to go under via company statements. You are trying to stifle the fraud facts before the OSC trial has happened. Billions in fraudulent mortgages were handed out and approved by management.

    Where there’s smoke there’s fire in all of the cases like these, but keep your head up your ass. Seems to be a comfortable place for you.

  141. I agree Numbers Hack.

    Nan, you may have some fact issues and some logic issues going awry imo. Your tendency to want to make things black and white and to blame someone for what you see as wrong may stop you from seeing shades of grey and being able to interpret information with a bit better accuracy. Now, if I don’t agree with you you have devolved to the level of personal attacks by implying I am unethical.

    What if the facts and the truth is really more nuanced and you are unfairly categorizing? Well, if so you are going to find yourself scapegoating others a lot of the time, which I personally find unethical and pointless when it comes to solving problems. Your decision-making is also going to be compromised, plus you are going to be needlessly frustrated.

    Here is my take:

    a. One person is not a party, even if they are the leader.
    Government is a system. A big party is also a system.

    b. Systems need rules or there will be unfairness because systems are made up of people who, while wanting to do good, generally also have personal interests they are motivated to advance for the themselves and the people they care about and they often use personal relationships to do this. That is human nature, but once the rules are clear and enforced most people in an organization follow them in my experience. The problems happen where the rules are not clear or not enforced when broken.

    c. The leader does set a tone, but we can’t rely on one individual to create a system of good government and make good decisions, and we don’t. There are advisory roles and research roles, legal roles, and internal and external checks and balances in place to assist with decision-making and enforce and interpret the rules when things go off–track.

    It is not a perfect system, but it does mean that Ms. Clark cannot possibly be solely responsible for all the decisions you disagree with, such as the teacher dispute. If you allow yourself to believe she is no wonder you and others are claiming she is incompetent, unethical, evil and the biggest problem. If none of these things are true you have stopped doing the work to find out where the real problems are in the system, if there are objective problems, which means you basically are wasting your time and energy via misdirection, and you are scapegoating.

    As far as the salary top-up goes, that was referred to the Conflict of Interest Commissioner and no conflict was found, although they did not comment on the ethics of accepting donations to start with. Ms. Clark has since stopped taking the top-up.

    Was it a personal ethical issue to take the money in the first place? I believe it did cross a line even if it was not against the existing rules. The unethical bit for me is accepting large corporate donations in the first place and. Getting a personal benefit from this is not something I agree with. Giving the unions or corporations the perceived ability to influence policy and decisions through donations subverts the democratic system even if it is not currently against the rules.

    It was a bit laughable that hours after the polls closed he was already signalling his very few “non-negotiable” demands AND that NONE of his demands involved any of his vaunted GREEN policies.

    He’s not going to get the policies through imo. He has a good chance to get donations banned. He also has an opportunity to push hard for proportional representation. He has the balance of power but pushed too far nothing will go forward, government will stall, and an election will be called. This is a choose your strategic battles moment.

    Try telling your employer that you want to take a leave of absence to try out another job and see what they say. Neither employer would look at you as a viable employee.

    If I had a good employee I would definitely give a leave to serve in public office All the universities that I’m aware of offer leave to serve a term in public office. Many other employers do as well. This is not just another job.

    I also think you are misinformed about how difficult it is to find a job post-term. Many people serving are highly qualified, some with professional designations, and well-connected, or financially independent.

    Politicians that hold onto one job while doing another provide themselves a parachute that precludes the overriding need to do a good job to ensure their survival.

    I’d disagree. Doing a good job is not a result only of the need to survive. Most people I know who are bright, hard-working and competent bring these qualities to everything they do. And a lot of people are really motivated by making the world a better place or feeling like they have made a difference in some way.

  142. I was going to agree that there seems to be a bunch of inventory coming on, but I defer to Leo on this since he’s actually looking at the data. These buyers were still in a rush:

    Bully bid on 1 – 1508 Holly St. in Oaklands. Sold for 975K on day 1 (ask: 898). Almost a million for a half duplex. Nice looking place but doesn’t have 3 beds on the same level and no suite?

  143. Really encouraged by some of the perspectives shared in regards to BC politics. Public service is not easy, and in most instances the compensation is not worth all the baggage associated with being a “politician”. Whether your name is Jim, Christy or Andrew, much credit for wanting to make a difference in the lives of BCers. All would be good and capable leaders.
    As JFK once said:
    “The great enemy of truth is very often not the lie–deliberate, contrived and dishonest–but the myth–persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. Too often we hold fast to the cliches of our forebears. We subject all facts to a prefabricated set of interpretations. We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
    [Commencement Address at Yale University, June 11 1962]”

    In an age where the real “facts” are not easily discernible because of the “noise”, the best leader for BC is the one that has the best infrastructure/system for garnering facts. Ideology aside, history has provided empirical perspective that the most just and prosperous societies are the ones that provide “incentives” for “job creations and innovation”. Now how you turn that into policy and placate the masses, well I don’t wish that upon anyone. haha.

  144. @Numbers hack: so that would apply to all the successful wealthy US bankers in 2007? The people who sold junk, committed fraud and sent the world into an economic crisis? Many people are probably happy to be on the “unsuccessful” list if that’s the type of stuff they have to do to be “successful”.

    @Wolf
    Depends on your moral compass/values. The quote was more along the lines of Steve Nash shooting an extra 10,000 jumpers a day to improve himself or an engineers trying to solve a problem that others think is impossible or to hard to engineer.

    In case of the US bankers of what they did in 2007, there is nothing different from what they have always done since Wall Street’s inception, selling the public that the “sum of the parts” is greater than the “parts” themselves. Putting some lipstick on a pig and using debt to leverage growth. Before it was just companies doing that, in 2007 it was countries.

    What people are buying in their stock portfolios at 20-30 time forward earnings, based on YoY earnings growth…blah blah blah…it is no different. A system based on a broken and clouded crystal ball. That is the system. Unless you or anyone else can propose a better system…there is million dollar prize called the Nobel if they could figure it out!

  145. New listings…

    Today: 64
    Yesterday: 73
    Tuesday: 47
    Monday: 39
    Sunday: 5
    Saturday: 11
    Friday: 65
    Thursday: 82

    So nothing out of the ordinary that I can see.

    In the first 11 days of May we had 552 new listings.
    In the same period last year we had 568 new listings. Almost exactly the same.
    Last year we ended up at 1383 new listings in May, which is about average for the month, so we’ll be close to that again.

  146. Gwac: “Thursday is the day for listings”

    You RE moguls will say anything. Regardless, it seems like a high number of listings compared to any day of week, including Thursdays.

    Perhaps Leo S has some statistics on this to share.

  147. “His platform speaks to everything that we should want but appeals to a grand minority, unfortunately.”

    I don’t think this is true. A lot of people only voted NDP because they were worried about splitting the vote and allowing the Liberal candidate in. Especially in Vancouver, and people I know across Metro Van & Whistler confirmed those discussions they had in meetings.

    Unfortunately a lot of people feel “stuck” voting for legacy parties, even if those parties don’t fully represent what they want. They wait for a critical mass of voters to develop.

    That’s why I think proportional representation works well in places like Australia.

  148. Totoro, you are following my logic perfectly and I would dare say, despite your wishful thinking have to agree with it.

    Politicians that accept kickbacks, promised employment and gifts from lobbyists are only thinking of themselves which puts them in direct conflict with their fiduciary duty to represent their constituents. These things don’t come without compromise or direct conflict.

    Politicians that hold onto one job while doing another provide themselves a parachute that precludes the overriding need to do a good job to ensure their survival.

    Try telling your employer that you want to take a leave of absence to try out another job and see what they say. Neither employer would look at you as a viable employee.

    Mr. Weaver, who I actually admire, was part of a Nobel Peace Prize winning team. That UVIC employment will always be there for him to return to. His platform speaks to everything that we should want but appeals to a grand minority, unfortunately.

  149. The Green Party has a very ambitious platform speaking to their core values and representing their constituents. http://www.bcgreens.ca/platform. REFORM POLITICAL FINANCE LAWS managed to hit page 66.

    The only reason that Weaver is making this a non-negotiable issue for them to support the other parties is because both parties have already reluctantly said they would.

    It was a bit laughable that hours after the polls closed he was already signalling his very few “non-negotiable” demands AND that NONE of his demands involved any of his vaunted GREEN policies.

    Assuming the minority situation holds it will be very interesting to see what Weaver does.
    If he supports the Liberals he risks sullying the Green brand and opens himself to charges the NDP will be sure to make next time that “a vote for the Greens is a vote for the Liberals”.

    If he supports the NDP there are risks as well, making the Greens seem irrelevant is one.

    OTOH if Weaver is seen as getting big policy wins from his balance of power then it could work out well for the Greens. Certainly Christy would want to give Weaver some wins hoping to build him up at the expense of the NDP.

  150. oopswediditagain I’m not sure I follow your logic. You seem to be saying that:

    Politicians are basically unethical because they pander to employment opportunities post-position because their tenure is uncertain.
    Someone who has employment to return to is not really committed to leadership so they aren’t going to give it the right amount of effort.

    So, in conclusion, no person acting as a party leader could possibly be rightly motivated no matter what. In response I would say I disagree – strongly. I do agree that our current system doesn’t really make it attractive to lots of people to step up and lead though.

    And you also seem to be stating that the Greens aren’t a real party so it doesn’t matter what they say and they don’t have to appeal to the masses and they don’t have to be realistic because they won’t win and don’t even have party status. All good, except for two things:

    Have you read their platform and budget? Seems like a mostly realistic kind of thing that would appeal to many who support a position somewhere between liberal and ndp with an emphasis on environment.
    You do realize that the Greens now hold a lot of power now and will continue to do so if the recount/additional count doesn’t create a majority government right?

    I’d agree that if the Greens were a party supported by the popular vote there would likely be more pressures from third parties placed upon them. I’m also not sure this would occur any time soon – likely not. They may well be the tipping point again though.

  151. Vicbot: “Um no. He’s championed various specific, action-oriented causes including a campus sex assault bill & he’s also an accomplished scientist that was part of a team that won the Nobel Prize. So he brings the same concerns to his political actions as the voters in his riding have.”

    I’m sorry that I was being so simplistic. He would not have the luxury of addressing the concerns of his particular riding if in fact he was the leader of an official party.

    The fact of the matter is the Liberals and the NDP carry so many seats because they pretend to pander to the every day/average joe’s biggest concerns. If everyone’s concerns matched up with the Green Party’s platform they would actually be an official party. Not an official party by virtue of 4 seats but one challenging the incumbent with over 40 seats.

    So, yes he has the luxury of espousing his relevant and important platform to the few (in context) people that support that viewpoint. His championing of his riding’s concerns simply speak to his intelligence in ensuring his longevity as a politician.

    Andrew Weaver has the luxury of supporting his ideology because he isn’t a serious contender. I like him but if the world turned upside down and he was drafted as the Liberal boss he would be embracing some seriously different ideals.

    Let’s put him to the test.
    http://www.northdeltareporter.com/news/421930723.html

    “We put it on record that the most important issue for us right now, the number one deal breaker is banning big money in B.C. politics,” Weaver told reporters Wednesday. “It is a non-negotiable issue for us to support either of the parties.”

    The Green Party has a very ambitious platform speaking to their core values and representing their constituents. http://www.bcgreens.ca/platform. REFORM POLITICAL FINANCE LAWS managed to hit page 66.

    The only reason that Weaver is making this a non-negotiable issue for them to support the other parties is because both parties have already reluctantly said they would.

    For a party that is so diametrically opposed in values to the other parties, you would think that something of real value would have been on the table.

    Let’s see what happens over the next two weeks to get a true evaluation of Mr. Weaver. If he wants the power/position that will come with his support for another party then the negotiations will be something the other party can swallow really easy. See above.

    If he is a stand up politician (unicorn) then he will insist on something substantive from his platform as a reward for supporting the other parties.

    He is actually in a no win situation. His best strategy would be to turn down any support and play with his current ridings.

  152. Hawk I told you it was going to be sold or assets sold off. We are seeing assets sold off to stabilize the company so it can be sold for a descent price. As I kept saying the loans are stable and not an issue.

    You are the one who said it was worthless and loans were all fraudulent. Get your lies straight. If anyone is like trump it is u.

  153. gwac, you just told us several times that Home Capital was going under. Why the Trumpian double speak flip flop ? Big price slashes got you down again or is it just the rain again ?

    I’d say you need the meds cause this bloated pig is leaking badly. Another Oak Bay beauty getting a $50K whacking at 2127 Fair St. I’m losing track of all these price slashes the last few days.

  154. “He is also the leader of a party that still hasn’t got official party status which allows him the luxury of preaching to the converted.”

    Um no. He’s championed various specific, action-oriented causes including a campus sex assault bill & he’s also an accomplished scientist that was part of a team that won the Nobel Prize. So he brings the same concerns to his political actions as the voters in his riding have.

    In terms of Clark, I see nan’s point, eg., as leader of a business or political party, it’s your responsibility to set the ethical tone and listen to concerns of your “customers” (voters). She’s simply not a very “action-oriented” leader until the urgency of something reaches a crisis. eg., the crony capitalism & corruption, RE problems in Vancouver, conflicts of interest, the total lack of economic drivers aside from RE.

    There’s a lack of depth there, and it’s very concerning to some people – a few friends have said she’s an opportunist, which I used to disagree with, but now I see their point, based on her track record.

  155. @ GWAC – I’m about as far from being in a union as I could ever be.

    @ Totoro “Donor influence and the rules about this are a much bigger concern for me.”

    There would be no problem with donor influence if she had enough character not to take the money in the first place. She was literally taking 50,000/ year as a salary from the party that was directly funded by donations. “I better not take this because it looks bad” is very different from “I would never take that because it is wrong”

    Are you familiar with the “tone at the top” concept?

    Some people need laws and the threat of incarceration not to steal, some people just don’t because they know what is right. In both the teachers contracts and donors issues, you believe that without the right rules, she is just doing what is permitted, whether it is right or wrong and that is OK.

    Apparently, we differ fundamentally in our ethics.

  156. “I am always amused that people will elect Joe Blow off the street and expect him to be their representative and understand his job the very next morning. Would you elect your neighbour?”

    I have occasion to meet MLAs from time to time. I find most of them to be intelligent and very dedicated, even ones whose ideology I completely disagree with. Of course there are few duds – MLAs that aren’t so bright, overly blinkered by their ideology, or in it just for power.

  157. Totoro: “Andrew Weaver is a Lansdowne professor and Canada Research Chair at the University of Victoria. I don’t think job security is a concern for him.”

    Hey Totoro, I believe that you may be right about Weaver but he has the luxury of his ideology. He is currently on leave from the University so he isn’t really all in. In other words, his family and future don’t depend on his success as a politician.

    He is also the leader of a party that still hasn’t got official party status which allows him the luxury of preaching to the converted. In other words if politics was religion, he could very well be the pastor of the “Church of Bob”. The mainstream religions would ignore him and he could dispense platitudes at will to his flock.

  158. @Tallguy: homes with double sinks start at $2 million 🙂

    Looks like a firesale on MLS today. Lots of homes coming onto the market.

  159. Hawk

    What are you going on about. Time to get your Doctor to up the dose. You need to get back to reality.

    I see home capital is alive and well selling off assets and the stock going up. Wrong again….Story of your life…

  160. AG and gwac still can’t get those phones to ring. Maybe try swapping chairs in your cubicle, but watch out, gwac’s might have some burrs still sticking out. Have you guys tried stuffing mail boxes yet? 😉

    Another Oak Bay slasher at 2192 Cranmore Rd whacked down $60K in prime $1 million range. Guess the buyers have figured out the hype ain’t worth the gouge. Down she goes matey !

  161. 3553 Redwood Ave…a new listing at 1.938 in the Henderson area. Is it just me or perhaps this is a bit high given things appear to be slowing down? Nice looking family home, can’t blame a person for testing the market.

    Redwood seems really high to me, but am I out of touch already? You gotta love how they added an ‘8’ in the price – esp. given the popularity of that ‘hood w/ a certain set. I was looking at homes in this area late in 2015 and early 2016 and this home would’ve been around $1.1m or so then. I have to ask: have things really gone that high that fast? We will have to wait and see if it sells and what for…

    Another new listing today priced more appropriately than Redwood, and which I think will sell quick and over asking – in the really sought after part of Fairfield…beautiful kitchen! 94 Moss St at just under $1.2m.

  162. @Numbers hack: so that would apply to all the successful wealthy US bankers in 2007? The people who sold junk, committed fraud and sent the world into an economic crisis? Many people are probably happy to be on the “unsuccessful” list if that’s the type of stuff they have to do to be “successful”.

  163. They will always be looking for other “opportunities” because they don’t have any security.

    Andrew Weaver is a Lansdowne professor and Canada Research Chair at the University of Victoria. I don’t think job security is a concern for him.

    They are not in office to help the masses. They are in office because they are attracted to the power and/or benefits.

    When elected Andrew Weaver gave up his 182k UVic salary for a 101k salary as a MLA. Doesn’t seem to be power hungry to me either. He was quite reluctant to run in the first place and only agreed to do so after being asked four times and had little prospect of the success he currently has when he accepted.

  164. Successful people do what unsuccessful people are not willing to do. Don’t wish it were easier, wish you were better. ~ Love this quote.

  165. Nan:

    “The highest level problem we have right now is that the person with the public trust is not trustworthy. Until that is resolved, everything else is just details.”

    Hi Nan, I think that you have just described every politician for the last 100 or so years. In a four year term, the first year, generally is a learning year. The second year is a planning year in terms of which promises you might keep. The third and fourth years are simply “How do I get back into office and which promise will I enact to help me reach that goal?”

    Politicians make great money and pensions because their futures are in the hands of everyone….every 4 years. They will always be looking for other “opportunities” because they don’t have any security. Not an excuse, just a fact. Kickbacks, lobbyists, employment offers, all subject to the right “moves”, of course. It’s easier to ask forgiveness then to ask for permission.

    They are not in office to help the masses. They are in office because they are attracted to the power and/or benefits. They spend 75% of their time trying to figure out how to stay in office. Some of the most incompetent politicians are the most visible ones because they can’t or don’t know how to do their jobs. They have come to the conclusion that people will vote for a face that they remember.

    I am always amused that people will elect Joe Blow off the street and expect him to be their representative and understand his job the very next morning. Would you elect your neighbour?

    I know that I am coming across somewhat optimistic regarding our leaders but why be negative. Right?

  166. I’ll be curious to see what the new listing at 1839 Townley goes for. Seems to be the exact combo of bed/bath/suite/location everyone is looking for. Anyone think it touches 900k?

  167. Nan, I’m fine with you expressing an opinion, just less fine when you tell me, as if it is a fact, that:

    The highest level problem we have right now is that the person with the public trust is not trustworthy. Until that is resolved, everything else is just details.

    When I don’t see that as the big problem at all and I presume you are including all people in the “we” you are using? In fact, I don’t even see this as a mediocre problem given all the other things I know.

    Donor influence and the rules about this are a much bigger concern for me. Has nothing to do with trusting some individual person even if they are the leader because I don’t see it as reasonable to rely on personal trust in politics – or to believe that one person is the decision maker and responsible for government actions – we need to make sure there are good rules in place so the ability to deviate from good governance principles is limited in my opinion.

    My view is that by buying into a scapegoat you may feel pleasantly outraged and morally right, but you may be removing your ability to assess the facts logically and come up with practical solutions in a situation in which your evil gal may be back in power for four years based on the popular vote.

    By deflecting your anger onto Ms. Clark you might well be enabling the continuation of actions you despise due to ignoring a whole host of other variables that have a large sphere of influence in government that get little attention because Ms. Clark is wearing the bulls-eye.

  168. “I might be mistaken but last time I looked inter-provincial pipelines are the exclusive jurisdiction of the Federal government much like airports and inter-provincial highways. The province can do a lot of negotiating on the matter but at the end of the day the Feds can do what they want. Should we not be blaming Trudeau and not Christie Clark?”

    Yes, pipelines are a federal undertaking. I am sure the Greens and NDP are well aware of the doctrines of interjurisdictional immunity and paramountcy.

    Not sure what all the fuss is about – the oil is going to market one way or another, and it’s much safer to ship by pipeline than by rail.

  169. it looks to me like the tide is beginning to shift.

    Hawk’s tide has been turning for so long that I’m starting to doubt the lunar cycle 🙂

  170. If I remember correctly, teachers in BC and Canada are some of the best paid teachers in the world. They have a far better situation than teachers in the US and the UK, for example.

    If teacher salaries were left to the free market, they would almost certainly be lower. I think I’m correct in saying that private school teacher salaries are actually lower than their public school counterparts.

  171. @ Totoro, I am not trying to convince anyone that democracy is wrong.

    I do believe that Christy Clark is an incompetent, narcissistic, arrogant, untrustworthy power hungry mouthpiece that has had her chance.

    The highest level problem we have right now is that the person with the public trust is not trustworthy. Until that is resolved, everything else is just details.

    With a society based on self interest and the incredibly well funded media onslaught put on by the liberals over the last year, it’s no surprise that many people voted for the liberals.

    It doesn’t mean they did it for the right reasons.

  172. “Class sizes in Korea average 40 students and in China classes average about 80 students. The academic standing in both those countries far exceed western countries with small class sizes.”

    Of course, that’s why they are clamouring to come here to get a real education and buying up our real estate to house them.

  173. Listings at a year high in Oak Bay and Saanich East but sales down. Toss in the price reductions on some nice places in the core and it looks to me like the tide is beginning to shift.

  174. Am I mistaken or does there seem to be a real slowdown of sales of SFH in Victoria?

    Still seems to be selling.. 8 last week, 8 the week before, 16 the week before that, 5 before that.. Too small a sample to really get a sense.
    Days on market is up, but its early in May so it doesn’t necessarily mean much.

  175. 3553 Redwood Ave…a new listing at 1.938 in the Henderson area. Is it just me or perhaps this is a bit high given things appear to be slowing down? Nice looking family home, can’t blame a person for testing the market.

  176. Teachers do get paid well and have good benefits and great pensions. In BC the average teacher with ten years’ experience made about $81,500, not including benefits, for ten months of work. During the school year there are 186 instructional days and seven pd days. They can choose to take their salary over 12 months if they want, but they can also work at other jobs in the summer.

    The grid for Victoria is here:
    http://www.bcpsea.bc.ca/documents/sd-collective-agreements/SD%20Jul2016%20May2017%20Jul2017%20Salary%20Grids/61-ET-Salary%20Grid%202013-2019%20revised%20as%20of%20May%201%202017.pdf

    The job of a teacher is important and trying at times and should be well-compensated imo, so I don’t think teachers are overpaid for their work myself, but neither are they hard done by in that area.

    As far as class size and composition, I’m a fan of giving more money to keep sizes lower and provide support for special needs. No matter what other countries do, a smaller class size and more support seems like a good thing for students which is where I’d like to see the focus.

    The last teacher’s strike in 2014 was ostensibly about the needs of students re. class size and composition, but was joined to a 12% wage increase demand. If the students had a union those demands would have been separated out instead of trying to get public support for the whole package based on student needs. Many teachers are good helping people, but their interests are not always the same as the best interests of students even though that is what the union promotes which generally garners public support.

    I don’t really care that Ms. Clark did not complete her undergrad and I’m not aware that she could not, only that she did not. I’m more impressed by real world accomplishments than studying and passing exams. By real world, I mean in the workplace, volunteering, artistic production or at the research level in university. Really odd to be made education minister with that background, but she has performed well enough to become the leader of the Province and that does say something about her aptitude and ability.

    who should be held accountable

    The democratic process gives everyone a vote – that is where elected leader and party performance is assessed and accountability measured. You would not have re-elected the liberals and feel “abused”, but they actually won the popular vote with Ms. Clark as the leader. I’m a fan of the democratic system myself, although I’d like to see a shift to proportional representation, and I’m not quite sure why you believe that your opinion should trump that of the 40.8% of the voters?

    As far as other wrongdoing goes, there is a Conflict of Interest Commissioner, court litigation for malfeasance, and it is quite likely that the issue of political donations will be front and center if the minority government stands. Not saying the system could not be improved, but I am saying that there will always be disgruntled taxpayers complaining about government and looking for a target to blame instead of a solution. Sometimes there is good reason to assign blame, but it is often based on misinformation, personal bias and scapegoating as far as I can tell.

  177. Am I mistaken or does there seem to be a real slowdown of sales of SFH in Victoria? I have noticed that both James Bay and Uplands have added a lot of inventory but very few sales.What does everyone else think?

  178. I am relatively new to BC so forgive me if I have my facts wrong. Please do correct me. First off I think the pipeline is not should a great idea particularly since it looks like Keystone is going ahead.

    I might be mistaken but last time I looked inter-provincial pipelines are the exclusive jurisdiction of the Federal government much like airports and inter-provincial highways.The province can do a lot of negotiating on the matter but at the end of the day the Feds can do what they want. Should we not be blaming Trudeau and not Christie Clark?

  179. @ VicRenter & Totoro – if you don’t think Christy should be held accountable, then who should be held accountable. Or should we just bend over and continue to take the abuse because “it’s not just her fault?”

    When a corporation or a government fails, the person who lead to that failure should be the first one that goes. This isn’t always the case but if you don’t hold the leader accountable, what alternative do you have?

    Leadership comes with both the prestige of leadership and the risk of failure. Without the risk of failure, you end up with people who act differently than they should. We saw this in 2008 with moral hazard in banking and pretty much everywhere else where leaders are able to benefit from upside with no downside risk when they aren’t held to account for their failures.

  180. “To attribute all of her party shortcomings to her personally does a disservice to reality and creates an environment that very few rational people would want to take on.”

    I agree, totoro, and I certainly don’t think that everything should be about her. The Liberals have in general proven themselves to be out of touch. They’re just lucky that so much of this province is so conservative that it wouldn’t vote for the other guys no matter what.

    On education: the Liberals haven’t just hurt elementary and high school education but also universities. They’ve reduced funding to the point of ridiculousness and have encouraged universities to recruit international students and their high tuition dollars to make up the shortfall. Watching it from the inside I can tell you that the result has been to turn universities into more for-profit entities with far less focus on quality education. (We now fail practically no one because who could possibly spare the tuition dollars?) I of course think that public universities should be fiscally responsible, but our system has really suffered under the Liberals.

    (As a side note, although CC is a figurehead for the whole party, her attitude on education is arrogant and negative. The fact that she was never able to complete her undergrad degree doesn’t give me much confidence in her ability to help steer our university system in the right direction, whether there are people working with her behind the scenes or not.)

  181. @LeoM – so true. 24 primary kids is a piece of cake. Those complaining teachers should easily be able to handle 80. They should have no problem with some special needs students in the mix too. I mean what a joke they get paid tons of money and get huge vacations. Have you seen the teachers parking lots lately? They’re full of merc’s and bmws. SMU and GNS have it all backwards with their two teachers per primary with a class size way under 20.

    Seriously though, you’re grossly misinformed.

  182. All this talk about the importance of class size is bogus. The teachers union supported Glenn Clark, so he rewarded the teachers union with a contract provision that should be a government responsibility. That contract provision just guarantees more unionized teachers paying more union dues to the teachers union. The hit to taxpayers is enormous.

    Class sizes in Korea average 40 students and in China classes average about 80 students. The academic standing in both those countries far exceed western countries with small class sizes.

    Thankfully the NDP lost the election.

  183. Ben Rabidoux made the observation that more canadians have a paid off house than Americans.. And yet debt loads are higher so that means more debt is concentrated in fewer hands making them more vulnerable.

  184. Moody’s downgrades the big 6 banks this afternoon…

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-10/six-canadian-banks-cut-by-moody-s-over-consumers-debt-burden

    While I don’t think this is a ‘huge deal’, it likely will be another stake against sentiment on Canadian housing, and banks are going to restrict their lending even more. Expect more selling in the banks and the canadian $ in the short/mid term.

    Wondering if this will cause banks to increase mortgage interest rates?

  185. The Libs & NDP would incur the wrath of their voters if they tried to team up.

    No kidding. I’d guess there’s as much chance of them teaming up as a Likud/Hamas coalition.

    It’s been an interesting election to watch. The first one I’ve ever seen where I feel like nothing happened as a result – of course this isn’t true, but you know what I mean?

    We just have to wait.

  186. “How come not much mention of a Liberal/NDP partnership”

    As Wolf explained, the BC Libs are not like the federal Libs – the Libs & NDP are polar opposites here, with the Greens in the middle. The Libs & NDP would incur the wrath of their voters if they tried to team up. In general the Green platform promotes fiscal responsibility + environmental sustainability – so a mix of the 2.

  187. Reason , thanks I stand corrected.

    Entomologist, on second thought you are correct, they may make the lone riding diff.

  188. “forming an alliance with a complete unknown entity and garnering them so much power? If either major party goes to bed with the Greens it legitimizes them”

    Can tell you live in Calgary. 🙂 The Greens are not unknown here like they are in Alberta. Most of the southern end of the island could be Green in a few more elections.

  189. How come not much mention of a Liberal/NDP partnership, after all isn’t that the gist of minority governments? Why the big attention to forming an alliance with a complete unknown entity and garnering them so much power? If either major party goes to bed with the Greens it legitimizes them and may well make them a force they soon regret.
    (I’m thinking purely from a political strategy perspective not of political platforms)

  190. The 600K was advance voters of which some were absentee/advance. All valid absentee votes are opened and counted during final count. The court has noting to do with it at this point.

  191. Don’t see any majority happening.

    Hawk, I hope you’re right, but all it could take is a dozen ballots in Courtney-Comox to change the outcome. 176,000 is much more than enough. I fear that this (majority outcome in the end) is more likely than not at this point.

  192. “And on another but very related note, honestly, I think you are confusing your admiration of Christy Clarke as a “strong independent woman” which she certainly is with a reason to vote for her as a competent leader, which she certainly is not.”

    Christy tried to be Gordon Campbell when he screwed the health care workers in early 2000’s and never learned a damn thing. She’d rather take our tax dollars to to use to sue for her personal vindictiveness teacher issues that go back to her college days when she couldn’t complete her degree.

  193. Not the 600K talked about last night. Don’t see any majority happening.

    “@ElectionsBC

    The preliminary count of certification envelopes containing absentee ballots province-wide is 176,104.”

  194. passed legislation that was unconstitutional

    Passed legislation that was later deemed unconstitutional after proceeding through the various levels of appeal which is due process. This is not “continuing to break the law”. That is our system and permitted and it could have been overturned at each level. It is not all figured out in advance. What is figured out, ie. existing case law on point that is clear, is almost always avoided in policy and action by government because legal challenges cost so much money and time and it is bad press.

    a virtually certain outcome

    Really? I have to admit it has been a long time since I read the facts. I’ll take another look but cases are not accepted by the SCC unless there is a good triable issue left for them to review. If not, they just refuse to hear it.

    FWIW I worked in government – briefly. The way it works is legal advice is given prior to taking such actions and there is a risk assessment where there is a legal unknown, which continues all along the way.

    And by the way, I’m not agreeing with the Liberals. And while I quite like being thought of as dangerous, it adds spice to my self-image, I fear I’m slightly less edgy and more gardenery in reality and would not have handled the matters as the Liberals did.

    I am; however, fairly well informed on some matters related to teachers unions and my opinion is that the union takes some pretty tricksy or ill advised actions from time to time as well. People are operating within a similar bandwidth usually, unless you run across a psychopath.

    And on another but very related note, honestly, I think you are confusing your admiration of Christy Clarke as a “strong independent woman” which she certainly is with a reason to vote for her as a competent leader, which she certainly is not.

    Oh, well, I didn’t vote for her. I’m just saying that she appears competent to me. I don’t agree with many parts of the Liberal platform though. I’m just separating out the personal competency/intelligence issue from party-driven actions. If I’m frustrated I use my vote and one day I’ll probably sign up for more active but backroom action.

    And I’d agree I probably give her a bit of extra credit because I think she likely does get more negativity because of her gender. Felt the same way about Kim Campbell. With all the mud-slinging we are just making it harder to attract good people, men or women, to political office imo.

  195. What happens if Courtney/Comox ends up being a complete tie? Will there be a coin toss or perhaps better, one on one street hockey first to score 5?!

  196. @ Totoro: “Er, no she did not. You are possibly confusing public office, and how decisions are made about issues such as class size, with personal responsibility and decision-making.”

    Er no – With Christy Clarke as education minister, the Liberal party passed legislation that was unconstitutional. The constitution is the law of the land. By definition, her legislation was illegal because it was found unconstitutional (3 times). Christy and the liberals broke the law. Not only that but after the first ruling, when it was clear she broke the law, she just kept on breaking the law, wasting resources and wasting time for what was a virtually certain outcome.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/timeline-nearly-15-years-of-court-battles-between-province-and-bctf-1.3846338

    You are a very dangerous person because you are terribly convincing, even when you are horribly wrong.

    And on another but very related note, honestly, I think you are confusing your admiration of Christy Clarke as a “strong independent woman” which she certainly is with a reason to vote for her as a competent leader, which she certainly is not.

  197. Jeez, the price whackings are growing ten fold. Another nice Golden Head place at 4375 Shelbourne St. slapped down $110K. The foreigners cash tap inflow has clearly slowed down bigtime.

  198. “Wow Horgan sucking up to Weaver during the news conference wanted to throw up….He hated him the past 4 years….”

    I believe the quote “politics makes strange bedfellows” has some relevance here. Who knows what will happen. The result could flip after final count, and Courtenay-Comox may end up going to automatic judicial recount. The result of that recount could be appealed. The Court of Appeal could, although highly unlikely, invalidate the result and order a by-election. Oh the possibilities!

  199. Weaver has a hair trigger temper too, how could you not see it ? He won’t be an easy guy to work with whomever gets him.

  200. Ok, you’re talking literacy. Gotcha. Don’t have time to waste on google; young family working hard to buy home. 🙂

  201. I guess whether or not we agreed with her, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled against the BC gov’t & Clark in Nov 2016:
    http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/b-c-teachers-win-landmark-supreme-court-of-canada-victory

    The reason the teachers were angry is that (as Education Minister) she deleted parts of their existing contract – the right to bargain based on class size and specialist teachers.

    That doesn’t necessarily mean they had the ideal class size in mind – but it showed a lack of willingness to listen to their concerns – which could have been addressed in many different ways, and that continued to plague her for a long time.

  202. Weaver great new conference. Not angry and negative like Horgan. I hope the liberals can find common ground to work together.

  203. Have a source?

    Yes, but I would point out you have google at your fingertips.

    Canada

    Parental education levels also have a strong positive impact on literacy, with the mother’s education being especially important.
    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-004-x/2007006/article/10528-eng.htm
    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-590-x/2007001/4060561-eng.htm

    US
    http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/22501-mothers-education-significant-to-children-s-academic-success
    https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/improving-mothers-literacy-skills-may-be-best-way-boost-childrens-achievement

    And there are a bunch of OECD studies re. PISA that say the same thing. There are many factors at play though.

    You could probably say that about every profession…

    Absolutely. That is why it is important not to turn firefighters and teachers into heros en masse and politicians and realtors into villains. People are people and, while some professions attract more helping types, there are good people everywhere and people of different skill level in each profession.

  204. “There are some great teachers and not so great teachers.”

    You could probably say that about every profession…

  205. 1772 Kings Rd slashed $50K to $699K. Ouch. All that fantasy money gone poof !

    Another AG neighbor at 3175 Exeter Rd has to bite the dust $450K. Bigtime OUCH! I thought Victoria was the leader for luxury housing. Looks like they all left town on the new harbor ferry. 😉

  206. “Just kind of glad that this may get the liberals to address their major shortfalls and its stops the NDP spending for now.”

    You mean the multi-billions more in debt Christy has us in since taking over ? Then pumping out a $3 billion bridge that will cost $8 billion in reality? Yep, must be that funny math.

    “In the four years since running on a “debt-free B.C.” slogan, Christy Clark’s BC Liberal government has added $10.85 billion to the province’s total debt.

    And in the six years since Clark became premier, the government has added 30 per cent more to the province’s debt than the NDP did during 10 years in power during the 1990s.”

  207. Wow Horgan sucking up to Weaver during the news conference wanted to throw up….He hated him the past 4 years….

  208. “The strongest correlation for high scores is the parent’s education level, mother in particular”

    Have a source?

  209. Maybe that credit should go to the teachers and not the government.

    There are some great teachers and not so great teachers.

    The school system as a whole, including teacher salary and workload, probably has more to do with the high PISA scores than the teacher’s individual qualities. The strongest correlation for high scores is the parent’s education level, mother in particular. So post-sec levels also likely have an effect.

    In all PISA-participating countries and economies, school systems that invest in higher teachers’ salaries tend to have larger classes. At the country level, PISA finds that the size of the class is unrelated to the school system’s overall performance; in other words, high-performing countries tend to prioritize investment in teachers over smaller class size.

    Certainly to state that there is a lost and disenfranchised generation of students roaming around as a result of Ms. Clark is an overreach.

    https://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisaproducts/pisainfocus/49685503.pdf

  210. Back to real estate. Anyone have any updates from up island? Nanaimo? Comox Valley?

  211. BC has a history of never kicking out politicians. The only way they leave is via scandal.

  212. I hate politics. I want a leader to make me proud of where I live, to be socially and fiscally and environmentally responsible. I get that it’s an extremely challenging position and that you’ll never please everyone, but I can’t remember the last time I had any confidence is any politician or political party pushing the needle forward (or doing the ‘right’ thing). I suppose there was a glimmer of hope with the federal libs, but that’s fading.

    Congrats to the Greens picking up Cowichan Valley. I suspect it was heavily influence by them doing the ‘right’ thing and fighting the ridiculous dumping going on there. It’s pretty messed up the way Christy has been sucking the life out of education for 15 years, loses in the SC, then turns around smiling at the press conference talking about how we can ‘now focus on building a strong future for…’. Like WTF?

    Did I mention I hate politics?

  213. Jerry “There is no limit.”

    The limits are called terms that are 4 years…then we can pick again.

  214. “B.C. students top in world in reading, PISA shows

    Maybe Clark was at war with the teachers’ union not the future of our children.”

    Maybe that credit should go to the teachers and not the government.

  215. As education minister and premier, Christy Clark fought and lost an illegal war with our children’s future for 15 years

    Of the three leaders isn’t Horgan the only one whose kids attended public school? Clark’s boy goes to St George’s and Weaver’s offspring go to GNS.

  216. If the numbers hold up, I think (or at least hope) that the non-Canadian buyers tax will be implemented province-wide. I think either the Liberals will concede expansion of the tax (at 15%) to the Greens in exchange for concessions on other issues, or the Greens will work with the NDP to institute the tax province-wide (in the 2-30% range perhaps compromising at 15%). It’s not definitive if it’ll affect the real estate market but I’d like to find out.

  217. http://vancouversun.com/news/politics/b-c-election-2017-lieutenant-governor-asks-christy-clark-to-govern

    GC has asked the liberals to keep governing. More clarity required on what the final numbers are. If still a minority than the fun begins when Clarke calls back parliaments which I guess could go into the fall.

    Courtney is a real possibility or only possibility to get the liberals to a majority.

    Just kind of glad that this may get the liberals to address their major shortfalls and its stops the NDP spending for now.

  218. I think the election results are just about the best outcome that could have occurred, because it will keep them all on their toes.

    It’s good to see Chrusty and the Liberals taught a lesson they deserve, and I didn’t want to see another Liberal Majority. On the other hand, an NDP majority would’ve produced uncertainty for the economy, etc, and probably a downside for housing prices. That said, I still voted for them as I would’ve liked to see change. Now, it looks like Weaver has more power than he may have anticipated, so now the question is: who will the Greens work with if anyone? In the debate they said the Liberals were worse than the NDP, so they may work with the NDP? We will now have to wait and see, and what the recount produces.

    What does this mean for the local housing market? I think the recent slowdown in sales may have been partly due to people waiting the election results. Now, with this result we may just see continued slowdown as the actual election outcome still remains unknown. Like others have said, I now think we may see another election before too long.

    Recent OB sales: 2088 Newton st. sold for $1,285k (just $4k under ask). Very well kept with generous lot size, I did think this one would go. It had my dream food garden too.
    2777 Dewdney finally sells for $1,275k – this one needs a lot of work and it’s $124k under the original asking price, but the location near uplands and generous lot size probably helped.

  219. For all those who like to play the race card against a foreign tax that helps deter money laundering in our real estate and companies that Christy has done eff all on.

    CBC INVESTIGATES

    Millions in suspected Russian crime proceeds flowed through Canadian banks, companies

    Money traced back to largest tax fraud in Russian history

    A powerful Russian crime syndicate that’s accused of laundering hundreds of millions of dollars around the world appears to have also flowed millions through nearly 30 Canadian bank accounts

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/russian-money-canada-1.4102132

  220. As education minister and premier, Christy Clark fought and lost an illegal war with our children’s future for 15 years.

    Nevertheless:

    B.C. students top in world in reading, PISA shows

    Maybe Clark was at war with the teachers’ union not the future of our children.

    That’s the problem with most criticism of a non-socialist government in BC. It is not public policy that is the focus of attention but the rewards to the bureaucracy in the form of jobs, salaries, pensions and length of holiday that are the real issue.

  221. Anyone have experience or anecdotes about the Palladian at 1602 Quadra? I recall the heritage conversion was lauded at the time, how are things at the building ten years on? I see a number of units for sale there currently.

  222. My ideal system would be 50/50. Assign 44 seats via the popular vote. For example, Green had 16% so 44 x 0.16 = 7 seats and take down the current 87 ridings to 43 ridings. This way every vote would matter and you would still have regional input.

    Which would mean trashing our system of representative government. The existing system supposedly allows the electors of each constituency to choose a representative. What you propose bears no relation to a representative system.

    The real problem with the representative system we have is that the parties have the last word on who can represent them in your constituency. The result is that the representatives represent the government to the people, rather than, as originally intended, representing the people to to the government.

    As for the Liberals “obvious corruption,” is it really obvious? And if so, why are they not being prosecuted for it? I think in fact what is being described as corruption is accepting money from individuals or organization who or that will benefit from policies espoused by the party. But no one calls it “obvious corruption” when the unions donate to the NDP.

    The case of payments by the Party to Christie Clark might be deemed a form of bribery, but bribery is a standard feature of the parliamentary system. The only anomaly in the case of payments by the Liberal Party (I believe) to Clarke (money presumably from interested donors) is the timing. Normally, political bribes and payoffs (in the form of speaking fees, book advances, corporate directorships, etc.) are made after a politician leaves office. Until such payments are outlawed, there seems little point in worrying about a bit of overt bribery (if that what the payments to Clarke amount to).

  223. She broke the law to disenfranchise our kids.

    Er, no she did not. You are possibly confusing public office, and how decisions are made about issues such as class size, with personal responsibility and decision-making.

    While you may disagree with the Liberal policies and practices, Ms. Clark is the messenger and representative and acts on the advice provided by many who are behind the scenes. She would not retain leadership of a party like the Liberals if she did not. I’d say only the Greens are small enough not to have this be true.

    I suppose you could be outraged that she delivers the messages you don’t agree with and that she is playing a critical role in her party and sticking to the party decisions which she may well agree with, but she is a figurehead for the most part and you are being duped in a way if you buy into this entirely. It stops you from asking who else was responsible for providing the advice and making decisions behind the scenes and how did government get to a place where they were acting taking these actions you don’t agree with.

    As for illegal, yes, a lot of governments get sued for actions which are not clearly legal or illegal at the time until the matter is decided by a court. What was and ought to have been clear all along to government was their bad faith bargaining imo.

    her salary will increase

    She gets 195k a year and her pension. I would not do her job for that and wouldn’t begrudge a raise. It is good salary, but you have to have a thicker skin than I do to throw yourself up into the court of public opinion where truth is less important than finding someone to blame.

    I’m now also reminded why I have previously avoided engaging in political discussions with anyone but my husband. Forgot somehow.

  224. As education minister and premier, Christy Clark fought and lost an illegal war with our children’s future for 15 years.

    The Supreme Court of Canada decision found that the Liberal government had, repeatedly, acted illegally in using legislation to strip provisions from teachers’ contracts that set limits on class sizes and mandated levels of support for students with special needs. The quality of education for an entire generation of kids was lost to this war.

    I don’t care how personable a person is or competent she appears or “well she performs under pressure”. She broke the law to disenfranchise our kids. For 15 years. While she gave herself raises and sent her kid to private school.

    A person who wages war on the people and their ability to learn for the better part of their career while systematically isolating themselves from the impacts of their actions has no business being anywhere near a leadership position.

    She’s a bully, a liar, she sets a bad example as a human being and frankly, I’m ashamed to live in a province where almost half of you have said “we want more of that!”

    If she ends up Premier (a position for which she has never been elected in her own Point Grey riding by the way), she’ll have mandate to continue to steal, lie, tax and sell you out to foreign investors and special interest groups for the next 4 years while she continues to vote for her own salary increases and runs the economy into the ground as she gets ready to ride her pension off into the sunset.

  225. Vic

    While I somewhat agree. I think she has done a good job but she is a bad messenger and comes across as uncaring and plastic at times. She really needs to work on the touchy feely skills.

  226. Yes I don’t think it’s her personally – she seems well-spoken and well versed on some issues.

    But as a package, Liberals appear shallow & out of touch with their focus on resources & RE (eg., the hard hat thing is getting tired).

    They seemed to totally under-estimate the anger people have in Vancouver at house prices – including homeowners. eg., what good is a “Job for your Family!” if you can’t afford a home or its taxes? One example: taxes to support Skytrain & Translink that don’t get you past the traffic jams caused by endless empty shoebox condo towers. Then add the corruption related to RE.

    There’s been a total disconnect. eg., at least Gordon Campbell did some work to spur BC’s non-resource-based economy – he worked US governors on green tech initiatives.

  227. gwac:

    NDP will not prohibit large donations. The largest donation from the election came from the US steel workers. They rely on large union donations. Liberal need corporate donations. Weaver will not get his way on that.

    If they have the opportunity and don’t follow through on this pledge the party might as well dissolve before the next election. Everyone who voted for them based on their platform for this election will vote Green in the next.

  228. I do agree the corruption issue is a real issue and something needs to change, although the NDP seem to have the same issue with union donors.

    It was just so bad last year…. every housing policy they introduced directly benefited large developers.

  229. PriceSlash™ at 1772 Kings Street. I guess three quarters of a million proved to be a bit much for 1000 sq. ft. even if there is the opportunity to create a possibly legal garden suite in the backyard.

  230. I can see that she is not coming across as genuine but she is definitely bright and definitely held her ground in the debates albeit with deflection back to the set message, which I found unhelpful.

    To attribute all of her party shortcomings to her personally does a disservice to reality and creates an environment that very few rational people would want to take on. I do agree the corruption issue is a real issue and something needs to change, although the NDP seem to have the same issue with union donors.

  231. “She’s the biggest photo-op queen who can’t say one intelligent thing without a script and even that’s phony as hell.”

    I have to agree with Hawk on this one. I’ve attended several lunches with her (don’t worry – I didn’t pay $10,000) and each time was shocked by how little she actually had to say. Even at these events that were closed to the media she just repeated basic talking points to the point of seeming robotic (“I care about families. I care about YOUR families!). I haven’t heard her say anything of substance.

  232. That will never happen

    Possible it won’t happen, but far from that certain imo.

    The people have spoken, we can’t stand her BS any longer.

    Hyperbole. In fact, the Liberals have won the popular vote – so far.

    People vote one way or the other for all sorts of reasons and not always based on one person separate from their party or platform. NDP traditionally gets the union votes and this has little to do with leadership and more to do with platform and perhaps the perception of preference due to union donors.

    Greens have gained more voter support in traditionally NDP areas based largely, imo, on Mr. Weaver’s credibility and the platform itself – not Ms. Clark’s “BS” because those areas were never going liberal anyway.

    I do think the Liberals have lost ground due to the fact that there is widespread belief that the party is corrupt and pandering to donors. That and they’ve just been in power so long that people are ready for a change and the Liberals represent more of the same. Plus I’m sure other reasons including public perception of Ms. Clark, just to a lesser scale.

    I personally would never run for politics due to how so many people feel free to malign these individuals and blame them for all sorts of things that they cannot possibly be responsible for in a democratic system. Public office is a public service and all the mud-slinging is disheartening. Free speech gets turned into something ugly.

  233. When I voted Green last night last thing on my mind was NDP-Green coalition. Can’t stand the obvious Liberal corruption, NDP are just useless, and Green ended up being my protest vote. Don’t like them either as they sent mailouts to my house on two separate occasions……how Green is that, makes no sense. If you are going to be Green don’t send out mailouts, seems like a simple concept.

    Weaver wants proportional representation, which doesn’t seem like a great change to me.

    I am in my 30s and last night was the first time I’ve ever voted. Number #1 reason being is the current electoral setup and the fact that your vote as an individual actually doesn’t matter.

    My ideal system would be 50/50. Assign 44 seats via the popular vote. For example, Green had 16% so 44 x 0.16 = 7 seats and take down the current 87 ridings to 43 ridings. This way every vote would matter and you would still have regional input.

  234. “NDP will not prohibit large donations. ”

    Right, that’s why they proposed a bill 6 times to ban them.

  235. “Yes, lots of staged-ish photos on both NDP and Liberal side. Probably part of the strategy which candidates are told to follow. I agree it comes across as fake.

    who can’t say one intelligent thing without a script

    Completely untrue and unfair. She is a very competent and intelligent individual who handles herself well under pressure.”

    She’s been a photo-op queen for the last 4 years. Do you not watch her when she speaks without a script even when she gets lobbed softball questions by the weak media scrums that follow her ?

    You have to be blind to not see she can’t hold a conversation of any substance. Not to mention lack of sincerity or empathy until she’s absolutely forced too.

    The health workers scandal was despicable and she could have stopped it and did nothing, not to mention the fake RCMP investigation that never happened. Born liar to boot on top of how many breach of trust criminal cases all around her ? Ethics are non-existent in her world.

  236. NDP will not prohibit large donations. The largest donation from the election came from the US steel workers. They rely on large union donations. Liberal need corporate donations. Weaver will not get his way on that.

    We will have to wait anyways till the end of the month to see what the final vote count is. No stupid spending for the foreseeable future. Hopefully.

    I agree with Hawk we are back to the polls in the not to distant future.

  237. No, the Liberals didn’t win a minority government

    When the preliminary count was completed on Tuesday night, no single party had broken the 44-seat threshold for a majority in British Columbia’s Legislative Assembly. The Liberals were in the lead with 43 seats, followed by the NDP with 41 and the Greens with 3.

    It is unknown whether these totals will remain the same after the final count (which, unlike the election night results, includes absentee ballots) is completed in a couple of weeks. Until then, it is impossible to say who will end up in power. However, this has not stopped major media outlets from declaring that the outcome of the election is a Liberal minority government. This is false.

    Under BC’s parliamentary system of government, elections determine the composition of the Legislative Assembly; they do not determine the composition of the government. It is up to the Legislative Assembly to determine whether Clark can continue to govern with a minority.

    For the time being, Clark is the premier, and will remain so until such time as she tenders her resignation to the lieutenant governor. If she wishes, she has every right to meet the legislature and test whether she has the confidence of the house. As long as she can hold the confidence of the house, she can continue to govern with a Liberal minority in the legislature.

    However, this is not the only possible outcome. In the days to come, Clark may try to form a majority government through coalition with the Greens, inviting members of their caucus to join her cabinet while maintaining their party affiliation. Alternatively, being unable or unwilling to make the concessions necessary to bring the Greens into her government and anticipating inevitable defeat once the new legislature convenes, Clark may announce her resignation. In that case, the lieutenant governor, Judith Guichon, would invite John Horgan to form a government. Like Clark, Horgan would have the option of trying to keep a minority government afloat, or he might try to form a majority government through an alliance with the Greens.

    https://stephentweedale.wordpress.com/2017/05/10/no-the-liberals-didnt-win-a-minority-government/

  238. “If the Liberals don’t get a majority their only real chance of getting the Greens to work with them is to agree to prohibit donations. ”

    That will never happen, it’s their lifeblood. Can’t stop corruption once it’s wormed it’s way into the party.

    Christy lost even if she gets the minority and will be toast before the next election in 18 months. The people have spoken, we can’t stand her BS any longer.

  239. Christy won’t stop corporate donors, NDP will. That’s a major one for Weaver.

    If the Liberals don’t get a majority their only real chance of getting the Greens to work with them is to agree to prohibit donations. I hope we see movement on that as it should be stopped.

  240. So much for their principles!

    If only every elected leader brought this quality to the table we’d get better policy and decisions imo. What they are saying is they will consider the facts, not the party, and make decisions about what to support. Looking at the platforms, I don’t believe the Greens will join with the NDP overall, but will align on discrete issues like electoral reform.

    The more I think about it the happier with the possibilities of this outcome I become. On the downside, government could be slowed down or paralyzed, but on the upside there is room for the better/more important ideas from each of the platforms to move forward if deals need to be made.

    Weaver wants proportional representation, which doesn’t seem like a great change to me.

    Proportional representation does often result in coalition governments. Lots of countries have this system – like Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Austria, Netherlands and Finland – and make a lot of progress on difficult issues. Here is an overview of the pros and cons:
    https://www.tgs.kent.sch.uk/bbcnews-school-report-2015/2015/3/19/the-pros-and-cons-of-proportional-representation

    She’s the biggest photo-op queen

    Yes, lots of staged-ish photos on both NDP and Liberal side. Probably part of the strategy which candidates are told to follow. I agree it comes across as fake.

    who can’t say one intelligent thing without a script

    Completely untrue and unfair. She is a very competent and intelligent individual who handles herself well under pressure. What is true is that in the campaign she was sticking close to a pre-determined party line which I found off-putting, but, disappointingly,can be effective in politics.

    I found Mr. Horgan’s inability to keep his temper and refrain from personal attacks much more troubling though.

  241. Greens will not do anything to make the NDP look good. Political suicide. Most of their votes come from that political side.

    NDP and greens cannot afford another election right now. So the greens will hobble something together with the liberals.

  242. @ Leo

    Best case scenario here is Liberal + Green coalition which I think could result in some great changes to BC.

    Can you summarize what great changes will result from adding Greens to the Liberal Party? Weaver wants proportional representation, which doesn’t seem like a great change to me. It means that we will for ever after have minority governments unable to act without agreement from a bunch crackpots minorities of whom none may have won an outright majority in any riding.

    The liberals have been punished, deservedly, for allowing the housing market to become a casino, but transforming government into a committee of deer/bunny-loving crackpots who think that a climatologist is the best person to dictate the future of BC politics would be idiotic. The sooner the Green Party is returned to the obscurity it so well deserves the better. The Liberals and the NDP should make an agreement now to do no deals with the Greens. Maybe they could agree to alternate, two years for the NDP, two years for the Liberals and then another election. Alternatively, they could have an NDP-Liberal coalition.

  243. “I find Christy Clark likable and well-spoken myself, ”

    She’s the biggest photo-op queen who can’t say one intelligent thing without a script and even that’s phony as hell.

  244. “There were 1,856 of them in Comox Valley in 2013, when the NDP received 780 to 712 for the Liberals.

    However, this time the Liberal candidate is Jim Benninger, the former Base Commander of CFB Comox. It stands to reason that many of those absentee votes will come from Benninger’s former co-workers who were on assignment during the campaign”

    These are mail in votes. This is not over yet but I am ok with a minority a government who cannot get anything done and cannot spend recklessly is fine.

    Curious can the greens work with the NDP. I would think they are trying to differentiate themselves from them and not help them.

    This will be an interesting period. Christy is not liked she needs to go before the next election but she may be the only one on the liberal side who can keep a liberal Gov going as a minority. Would be happy to see Christy put weaver in as environment minister and make some needed changes in that area.

  245. Greens reiterating they will work with anyone. Best case scenario here is Liberal + Green coalition which I think could result in some great changes to BC.

    I strongly agree and it seems more likely than not to me.

    I find Christy Clark likable and well-spoken myself, but the donation issue is a real issue. Needs to stop and that is the Green Party’s number one priority. We could well see then end of corporate and union donations/non-representative influence.

  246. Best part is the province has told Christy “we don’t like you” and if the 600K advance votes influence just a couple of close ridings we could be NDP minority. I could see the Greens and NDP getting together to give to to Christy and her corrupt gang and donors.

    If Greens give into Christy they will be labeled a sell out to the big money gang.

  247. Lore, I feel it must be pointed out that on this (solitary?) occasion Saint Margaret was wrong.

    The Sandalistas which make up the bulk of the NDP herd will first spend your money, then your kid’s money, then borrow against your grandchildren’s future earnings.. and so on.

    There is no limit.

  248. Have to wait for the recounts by month end to make sure we do have a minority government, but I don’t think much will happen for housing. Minority governments sometimes don’t get as much done, not even sure how the budget will pass unless the Greens support it.

    In Andrew Weaver’s shoes I’d be concentrating on electoral reform because there is a chance of another election in 18 months. The NDP would support it and the Liberals are going to have to give something to get Green support on other items. Would be an ideal time to press it.

    If the Liberals are a minority government their best option is probably a coalition government. Maybe they can get a formal agreement with the Greens by giving Mr. Weaver the environment cabinet posts, along with guarantees on the abolition of corporate and union donations.

    Who knows at this point but the Greens have publicly said they are willing to try to work with any minority government, but are firm on the donation issue.

  249. Unfortunately, I think we may be jumping the gun with the whole minority gov thing. Courtney-Comox (NDP) is based on a 9- vote margin; a few other ridings (mostly NDP) are in the 100-200 vote range. Absentee ballots and recounts will be key.

    Why don’t they count absentees ahead of time? Seems insulting to those who plan ahead.

  250. More taxes from the looks of it. Should be interesting to see if there is a surge of listings in the next few weeks. Am I glad I am retired and not having to pay for all these wonderful projects.Also glad I am not a landlord.

  251. Living in this province, there are times when I feel like an alien from another dimension. This is one of those times. What we’re witnessing is a kind of grand, collective neurosis. Nobody so much as touched real issues; it’s just “Gimme gimme gimme, and screw the other guy who has what I want.” If the NDP and Greens form a coalition, what happened in Alberta is going to seem gentle.

    “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.” – Margaret Thatcher