No amalgamation: It’s not all bad
Victoria has 13 municipalities and the only constant between them is that people in every municipality have been talking about amalgamation since the start. Efforts to actually amalgamate them have moved in fits and starts over the decades, but so far little has come of it. The most recent progress has been Saanich and Victoria voting to create a citizen’s assembly to study the prospect of the two of them amalgamating, but one year on from the election there is still apparently debate on the particulars of that plan. Don’t count on any recommendations for a couple more years and I will eat my hat if they amalgamate within the next 15.
In general, I support amalgamation just on the basis of the pure absurdity of splitting barely 400,000 people into 13 little buckets, some of them hardly bigger than neighbourhoods. Let’s be honest, there’s nothing in View Royal except the nifty new bike park. And did the Highlands crack 2000 people yet? Is there anything more absurd than so few people supporting a mayor & council, website, bylaws, office, and associated bureaucracy? If there was a ever a little test case for amalgamation it’s folding the Highlands into Saanich. And despite how easy that should be, it also ain’t gonna happen anytime soon.
My engineering nature makes it painful to see such inefficiency in services and roles and so much duplication of work. But recently I thought our splintered region may not be entirely bad. As strange as it seems in the context of governments, there is a little sense of competition in between the various fiefdoms, and that can lead to innovation. Of course many municipalities have no interest in innovation because their citizens aren’t pushing for it, but I feel the more vibrant ones are starting to think outside the box.
One area where this is obvious is in growth rates and approaches to development. Right now we have Langford and their anything goes approach to development, which serves the needs of a lot of young families that have been priced out of the core or businesses that have been zoned out. No surprise, Langford has blown everyone else away in terms of growth rate. However Victoria hasn’t stood still either. Despite the complaining about over the top regulation, Victoria has attracted nearly just as many new residents as Langford on a smaller land area purely through densification (and they are already 5 times as dense). Saanich isn’t far behind, but with a much larger area and population, their growth is pretty lacklustre. These numbers are all from before the building boom, so expect a bigger jump at the next census.
For municipalities, more residents means a larger tax base and ability to expand services, so there is certainly some foundation driving competition between areas outside of the mayors sniping at each other in the media. Would we have these kinds of diverse regions with radically different approaches to growth if they were amalgamated? Likely not.
Another area is innovation in building and approaches to the housing crisis. While Victoria is pursuing AirBnB restrictions, rental zoning, and garden suites, Langford is pushing single family on small lots and lots of rental in the core. I firmly believe that to make serious progress on housing affordability we need to innovate on land use and construction methods. That’s easier (at least in the early stages) if there are multiple smaller jurisdictions. If a developer wants to innovate with a mass timber apartment building, they have multiple places to approach and if one of them says no they can go somewhere else. Same with garden suites, prefab homes, or innovations in automating house construction.
Right now Victoria is pushing on garden suites as a way to densify single family neighbourhoods with minimal ability for NIMBYs to get in the way. They are considering expanding lot eligibility to homes with existing suites and allowing bigger ones on bigger lots. Undoubtedly using Victoria’s bylaws as inspiration, Saanich is very close to approving their own garden suite implementation. While uptake hasn’t been strong enough to be disruptive, I do think that moves towards garden suites could accelerate the end of the true single family home, and open up opportunity to build new dwellings quickly. Many “single family” properties may soon be housing three households.
Why then is uptake of garden suites still lagging? Largely because traditional construction methods are too expensive and too slow to make garden suites an economical investment. But I see no reason why that can’t be solved in time with some attractive and energy efficient prefab options that can be plunked down on a pad to create a garden suite. It takes technology and it takes economies of scale, but there are a lot of experts in those areas working on those kinds of solutions.
That kind of innovation seems to be happening at a greater pace now, and I think the different municipalities can actually help drive it. Government is generally slow to change, but all it will take is one of our 13 munis to prove out a new concept and show the others it works to make it spread. It’s not that we need them all and there are still serious disadvantages to having so many, but I think I’ve found a reason to be more optimistic about the situation.
The results of any survey conducted by the ICBM should be regarded with a high degree of suspicion. Any wage growth reflected in their stats is likely only in union positions. ICBM is anti-union, and the link to the survey is broken so there’s no way to determine its validity. “Safety Officer” is not an entry level position, generally requiring 5 years prior construction experience for a new hire.
I can’t speak to the situation in Victoria, but my experience working as a temp CSO in Vancouver was an eye-opener; most of the crews on concrete builds are South American TFWs. There will be an Anglo crane rigger who speaks Spanish, but the labour is all Hispanic speaking. Wood framed construction is different, mostly locals but few journeymen and lots of temp labour. I’d take the $20.22 figure as the more accurate.
New post: https://househuntvictoria.ca/2019/09/16/market-update-election-leads-to-bad-policy/
Residential is the bottom of the scale, while the bulk of the skilled trades people are in commercial at higher rates, and industrial rates are at the top end at easily $40+ an hour. A family of 2 working commercial/industrial trades people working full time or with some OT would be able to purchase a home in Victoria when they pull in anywhere between $140K for the low end to the upper end of $240K (in some case more if they willing to travel for work).
For what it worth, it seems as if many people who move on to the island lala land suddenly feels that they entitled to cheap housing when they are part of the crowd that drove up the price of RE in Victoria.
https://www.bchydro.com/toolbar/careers/students_grads/apprenticeships/powerline_technician.html
https://www.google.com/search?ei=Ubx_XZvxF9TN0PEPouiu4A8&q=bc+hydro+lineman+wage&oq=bc+hydro+lineman+wage&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-serp.3..0j0i22i30.0.0..137246…0.0..0.185.316.0j2……0.TpmXSmSDfn0
Here is an interesting and, imo, directly relevant article on displacement:
https://www.sightline.org/2016/08/10/displacement-the-gnawing-injustice-at-the-heart-of-housing-crises/
It sounds like the indeed average is mainly based on entry level positions. The article below gives a more detailed analysis of construction jobs’ salaries and is from over a year ago.
https://globalnews.ca/news/4027263/b-c-construction-jobs-offer-entry-wages-up-to-27-31-hour-and-theyre-growing-survey/
Seems unlikely.
You and Leo are proceeding on the assumption that adding high end housing trickles down to create greater affordability. the research shows that building high end housing increases housing prices, especially within half a km.
Displacement is a different story. It is not so much about improving affordability as it is about reducing pressure on housing stock.
Adding lower end housing helps a lot more. Subsidized housing has over double the impact of market-rate units in reducing displacement pressures.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263664371_The_Effect_of_New_Residential_Construction_on_Housing_Prices
“Wouldn’t it be awkward if STEVE NASH or DAVID FOSTER moved back into town and because they derive their income in the USA and pay taxes elsewhere, they would be considered “foreigners”? It is one goofy world we live in, gotta love socialism.”
If they actually moved back, they would not be considered foreigners, regardless of their source of income.
Deb, are you assuming a single earner household?
@Barrister
Construction workers hourly wage $20.22
Trade workers hourly wage (I went for electrician) $33.62
Buy a home and support a family in Victoria, that would be difficult at these pay rates. Even renting a small place would not be easy!
https://ca.indeed.com/salaries/Journeyman-Electrician-Salaries,-Victoria-BC
Govt support (CMHC financing, grants) is primarily for low-end rentals. That’s only part of the story with the construction boom.
And you are the one saying that it’s mainly high-rent places that are being built.
“LeoS: Not to mention we are building thousands of rentals right now, most of which will end up at the high end of the rent scale, given they are new. No shortage of high end rentals.”
Are you suggesting that we should thank govt and not the free market that the high-end rent scale places are being built too?
Patriotz: For a myriad of reasons the real choice for Victoria is between “resort city ” jobs and no jobs. House prices could drop in half and there would not be a flood of either tech or manufacturing jobs suddenly appearing on the island.
Nor is it totally true that the “resort city” jobs are necessarily low paying. Both the construction and trade jobs pay well as do the government jobs that are supported by the increased taxes. I know that I am inviting the usual magical thinking response that if everything could be changed under a planned economy blah, blah, blah.
maybe it is because many people are house poor?
lots of family and friends from out east dont even want to visit anymore because everything here is at premium prices for mediocre services . ferry and hotel cost arm and a leg here
Places that are dependent on outside wealth are exactly those where working people find it hard to get by. The jobs that get created by outside wealth are primarily low paid service jobs, while productive industry that would provide better jobs is driven away by the high cost of living.
We don’t need “resort cities”.
you got me there local fool, perhaps you could monetize your grammar services and get that dream home?
Time for some low-brow commenting.
I’ve asked before and I’ll ask again. Where did people learn this? The saying used to be, “I couldn’t care less”, which makes sense. You care so little, you couldn’t possibly care less than you do. Zero, nada, zilch. Nothing.
The apparently newer version, “I could care less” to indicate indifference makes no sense, yet it seems very popular now. If you, “can care less” or you, “could care less”, you’re saying you care. I could care less about my spouse. I could care less about my job. I could care less about my life and this planet.
Conversely, I couldn’t care less if Vladimir Putin took up ballet dancing, or if Donald Trump finally made the rest of his transition into an actual carrot.
So WTF. Isn’t the “I could” vernacular the opposite to the message you’re trying to convey?
hey Patrick, relax there champ. I am not a bear and I can care less who gets smoked out of their home. I have already given my advice for people whom can’t afford a home here: it is to go out and make more money instead of hoping for a crash.
Good point Jamal. We should also ban all tourists that stay here since they are not building the community.Need to also close down all the retirement homes and while we are at it get rid of all those useless students.
This couple are just long term tourists and discouraging tourists considering that tourism is down 6% this year might just not be the smartest thing considering how many people rely on it for their bread and butter. I looked up the numbers after the waitress at the Brentwood Bay Inn said that they had their worst summer in the six years that she worked there.
The spec tax may or may not be good policy but it does come with a price. This couple may or may not end up renting in Sidney. Many others will simply not come to Victoria at all. It is easy to forget that Victoria is very dependent on outside wealth for both its jobs and well being.
I wouldn’t hold up rental construction as a great example of free market. Support for rental construction is strong in all three levels of government. Much of it would not be happening if not for that govt support.
However given the overvaluation of just about all asset classes and cheap money, one would imagine rentals get more and more attractive
cry me a river.. i dont hear them complaining about property price increase.. spending 2 days here a year does not build the community that help shape Victoria .. technically every one working here is contributing to the increased valued of their vacation home..
Great. If the Sidney couple decides to stay and pay the spec tax, someone who would have bought their place can instead rent one of those plentiful high end rentals instead, and live it for 12 months per year.
The large number of rentals coming should increase the vacancy rate, and end the need for the spec tax applying in Victoria. Note that this is the free market solving the problem, by building homes, not feeble attempts by a socialist-leaning govt to solve it by taxing undesirable people out of their homes.
Of what use would be 6 month availability of spec tax related property be (for example Sidney condo), very likely the winter months? Do you really consider this something that will have more than a negligible effect on the housing crisis?
Not to mention we are building thousands of rentals right now, most of which will end up at the high end of the rent scale, given they are new. No shortage of high end rentals.
We’re talking about absentee part time residents selling. If they decide to rent, they become part time renters, but the properties they sell are going to be occupied full time, either by owner-occupiers or renters. That’s a net increase in supply
Too bad for you bears that there just aren’t enough people in Victoria to smoke out of their homes with these high spec taxes. Only 1,200 found by govt in Victoria and that’s a one time thing, and most will stay not sell. 5,000 new people coming to Vic. each year. You need to do some more mean-spirited social engineering and figure out a new huge tax to target more people to be forced out of their homes, solely to enable you to buy in a lower price point.
Not if the 1,000 people that sell rent instead. Then the new buyers in the market will be the landlords needing housing for the 1,000 new renters. There are only so many dwellings to live in, and increasing the number of renters vs owners doesn’t reduce the number of buyers, since someone has to buy the extra unit for the renter to live in.
There isn’t a shortage of anything at the market price, by definition. Leo’s point, which I will reiterate, is that adding more units to supply will affect prices across the board. It doesn’t matter what putative price you attach to the units – it’s the market which determines prices.
To put it plainly, putting 1000 more luxury units on the market will improve affordability for everyone just as much as putting 1000 more micro condos on the market.
So you’re concerned about a $2000/month luxury condo rental being taken off the market? Probably not too many locals desperate to rent a luxury Sidney condo for that amount either.
It reduces demand. That reduces price pressure. That doesn’t mean it will cause prices to fall, it just means whatever prices would have done without it, they will do slightly less of it with the spec tax in place. Simple economics. Just like the mortgage stress test doesn’t necessarily cause prices to fall, and building more housing doesn’t necessarily cause prices to fall. They all just tilt the scales a little towards buyers.
Is the bureaucracy of the spec tax worth the small gain? I’m skeptical, but it doesn’t change the underlying equation.
I don’t think we have a shortage of 700k condos myself? The real difficulty seems to be with entry level and affordable rentals and one more 700k unit to buy that takes one $2000 rental unit off the market instead seems like it is not super effective.
I don’t believe that the empty homes tax will cause prices to fall and developers to build $400k condos. I do agree that it may have the effect of discouraging investment from non-residents who don’t want to rent their home which may impact some demand for higher end homes, but this is an extremely small segment of the market (3.7% overall in BC and of that percent it is likely that a lot already do rent out full or pt).
I do think that if the speculation and vacancy tax dollars are used for affordable housing development that could help and if it turns some homes into rentals that were left vacant that could also help.
Move to Point Roberts???
Americans are smarter than that.
They elected a US government that signed a free trade agreement with Canada (NAFTA) that specifically prohibits treating Americans & Mexicans differently than Canadians for Real Estate (except for a specific exception clause added for PEI, and a section of the coast of Mexico). So now we have a class action court battle, first in Canadian courts, and if they lose the US govt can go to a NAFTA panel. They likely get all their money back if they win.
With USMCA (“NAFTA 2.0”) not yet passed, but days away from consideration by the USA congress , the timing of Trudeau’s announcement of a foreigners house tax is bizarre to say the least (he at least should clarify that it doesn’t apply to Americans or Mexicans). https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/13/trump-usmca-trade-1733491
Don’t agree with that. Putting aside the sensibility of the spec tax, adding one high end unit does help housing. Someone that wanted one of those places now has one more option. And more listings means downward price pressure. Also developers build to demand. If the demand is for $700k luxury condos then they will build that. If demand for those dries because of the spec tax they will build $400k condos for locals.
There is so much focus on “empty homes” and so little focus on actual affordable housing solutions. A 700k condo being used pt by a Canadian resident who will then sell because of the tax and rent instead is not going to contribute to more affordable housing. In fact, there will be less rental housing on the market as a result.
No, it sometimes happens if there is an issue with the individual paying rent on time.
The section 8 program is different as there is an actual fair market value calculation for each market area, so the payment can be much higher, and landlords register for the program and need to be inspected first. There is way more demand than supply though and some markets have six-year wait-lists or lotteries that have 1000 applicants for every spot.
In BC, the shelter allowance portion of welfare benefits is already paid directly to the landlord.
Unfortunately, the shelter rate for disability benefit recipients is inadequate, so they wind up in skeevy SRO’s where the landlords( or their building managers) are the drug dealers. The scams and abuse of welfare/disability recipients are legion, in my experience. These vulnerable people are dependent on the landlord for their housing; if they get evicted, their benefits can be held back. They self-medicate to deal with their mental illness and become indebted to dealers, who then require them to move drugs to work off the debt, or threaten to falsely label them as “rats” resulting in further exclusion from the only strata of society that hasn’t already rejected them. Women are forced into street-level prostitution.
The treatment of the profoundly mentally ill in this province should be investigated by Amnesty International, or some other NGO. Sorry to go on such a lefty rant, but if any one of you were forced to live, even for one weekend, the life of a mentally ill benefit recipient in this province, you wouldn’t recognize yourself by Monday morning.
We could build significantly more SFH if the processes were more streamlined. Example is the Trio site in Cordova Bay I’d mentioned. They can’t get the project off the ground due to all the NIMBYism. They’ve gone from a 400 unit to 385 unit to 309 housing unit proposal and still nothing built.
This is where we need the eye-roll emoji. Seriously – how about some actual facts to back this statement up? All I saw from the part-timer comment was that they spend various periods of time VACATIONING at their Sidney condo. Doesn’t sound like the profile of someone who is building a business here.
While I applaud and agree with this, drugs are just one of the many reasons that a person is homeless. Programs to combat homelessness fail when there is not taken into account the multitude of reasons that someone is on the streets. Here’s a 2009 article from the National Coalition on Homeless that succinctly covers many of the reasons:
https://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/why.html
One factor that has been mentioned time and again is the stagnation in real wages. While food, transportation and housing costs have gone up, wage growth has not kept up. This is a very real problem with impacts on the overall economy.
And this is one that I agree with. I’m constantly surprised at the number of empty houses in this region. Shaking out even a small percentage of those homes is a step in the right direction.
Introvert,
In the letter you posted, if everyone sells their vacation condo in Sidney then the price will be depressed from $700k, given that they can rent a condo for $2K a month and assuming that stays the same, it implies to me that probably somewhere around $500K (without crunching any numbers) would be what someone is willing to pay for a condo in exchange for that rent. So theoretically it will have brought the price down from $700k to $500k
That is an interesting idea and would be a lot faster than waiting for more purpose-built housing.
The feds would probably get the BC government to handle it.
Patrick, why couldn’t your American with hypothetical family ties in Vancouver buy a property in Point Roberts or Blaine? Much cheaper to start with never mind the extra taxes. And they can stay > 6 months a year without any income tax or visa issues. But I have to say your concern for rich Americans is touching.
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/point-roberts-wa_rb/
I like how Trudeau refers to this piling-on tax as a “modest” 1%, saying it in such a kind tone. Some “foreigner” (perhaps an American with strong family ties here) subject to this in Vancouver on a $1m condo would pay $40,000 per year *, about 8X their property taxes. And still pay property taxes too. Nothing “modest” about that Mr. Trudeau.
So if the feds roll out their foreign buyer vacancy tax will Vancouver owners need to fill out three forms every year to prove their home isn’t vacant?
About 1,200 people in Victoria have declared as subject to spec tax. (12,000 people in BC are declared as subject to spec tax, and Victoria is 1/10 of spec tax area).
That’s 1% of the housing supply. A tiny number, The restated perception that this single condo sale will be a net “help” ignores the parts where it ‘hurts” – namely that this Sidney condo person plans to rent for 6 months instead, so there’ll be no meaningful net gain in housing supply, as there’d be one less year-round condo available to rent.
Many part-timers in Victoria are rich, job-creating investors/patrons/philanthropists who may just sell and forget about B.C. and will start businesses and spend their excess money elsewhere. Or just not come in the first place. Calling people speculators tells them they are not welcome and some of them will take that hint and leave. We will be no better off, and there is a cost.
Well supply at any price level helps but as I’ve said before I’m lukewarm at best about the spec tax for condos. Better to just build more of them and maintain the spec tax for SFH that we can’t build more of.
A letter in this morning’s TC:
That’s a great idea.. give people the means to be housed and not become prey from predatory drug Lord’s.
Subsidized housing and group home have not worked, because drugs dealers targeted those easy preys as we have seen with the shutdown of Riverview Hospital and diverted the funding into subsidized housing/group homes.
In order to combat homelessness effectively, I believe that pharmaceutical companies have to be held accountable to a greater degree, and harsher punishment for drugs dealers and social justice warriors that lobby for ease of drugs access with intent for personal gain. More funding for rehabs centers, better education, and most importantly is that we need to revamp our family law, and promote greater family values (self sacrifice for the greater good of family and society) instead of promoting self centered/individualism values (such as, no fault divorce, and reel back state intrusion into family affair).
A great man once said; “Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country” — JFK
What about a system like the US where they get a rent token or some such. As in, rent gets paid direct from the state, not first paid out to residents?
Also, there has been some research that just giving homeless people money does lead to positive outcomes. Unfortunately I can’t find it anymore, but it was some study that just gave cash to homeless people and tracked outcomes, which were surprisingly positive.
Not for everyone of course but sometimes the simple approach is the easiest. Give them enough money to rent and many will chose to rent, not blow the money on other things.
By the way I recently enjoyed this Planet Money about homelessness and getting to functional zero https://www.npr.org/2019/05/17/724462179/episode-913-counting-the-homeless
I like this story.
Province overrules View Royal to build HandyDart hub.
https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/in-unusual-move-b-c-overrules-view-royal-on-land-use-1.23945927
Sorry, mistook your meaning. I volunteer regularly with those at risk of homelessness in Victoria. It is a very difficult situation and there is a SAFER program that provides an additional subsidy for those with low incomes (who don’t receive the shelter allowance), but it is also nowhere near market. There is also a lot of hidden homelessness in the form of living in vehicles and couch-surfing.
I don’t believe the answer is increasing the shelter allowance – the market gap is just too big and those struggling with homelessness often need more than money to have a stable home and housing stability is directly linked to reduced health costs for taxpayers. I believe the answer is more supportive and subsidized housing.
You being asked for change at the same frequency as in 2004 may not be the best measure of homelessness? I do agree it is more visible on Pandora than it was in 2004 due to services, but the numbers are also higher – which you’d expect due to population growth alone.
In 2011 the number of homeless was estimated at 1099 vs. the 2018 number of 1525, which as you mentioned was a reduction from before due to the court mandated requirement to provide housing in order to remove tent city from the courthouse grounds.
Victoria is not alone, many communities in Canada have experienced this. It is no coincidence that over the past 25 years, Canada’s population has increased by 30%, yet annual national investment in housing has decreased by 46%.
15 years ago I was asked for change by homeless people with approximately the same frequency as now.
Is it bad around Pandora? Yup for sure. Again though, 15 years ago my sister had a place there and everything that wasn’t nailed down was immediately stolen, including their door mat. Right now it’s more visible than it was because of the services for homeless there. The place could be cleaned up in a week by shutting down the services, but that’s hardly a solution.
It’s interesting for example in Vancouver downtown east side it’s insane because of the concentration, but actually Vancouver has many times fewer homeless people than Seattle. In Vancouver you notice them more if you drive through the DTES, in Seattle they are just more dispersed, but the problem is way way bigger.
Not talking about shelter. I’m talking about “shelter allowance” as part of income assistance that can be used for rent. https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/governments/policies-for-government/bcea-policy-and-procedure-manual/bc-employment-and-assistance-rate-tables/income-assistance-rate-table
Seems fair, but not a vote getter.
I’ve noticed a huge change in the last fifteen years. I worked downtown from 2002-2007 and the difference between then and down is dramatic. I think most business owners and service providers downtown would agree.
Exactly. And, imo, the market is never going to be able to provide SA shelter level rates for accommodation, and hasn’t for decades, and there is a five year wait list to get into subsidized housing with thousands on the list. Looking to private landlords to provide low income housing makes no sense because the market has not supported this for decades. Imo, put more tax dollars into co-ops and subsidized housing projects on public lands.
The 2018 homeless count found 1,525 people in Greater Victoria. It’s an alarming number given the millions that have been spent to create more supportive housing units in response to Victoria’s tent city. About 320 new supportive housing units were created as a result of the court order.
Yes, but shelters are not a substitute for subsidized housing. They are dirty, crowded and often unsafe. Not to mention you have to move out during the day. Many prefer to live on the streets than stay in a shelter.
I don’t have any issues with going downtown and don’t find the homeless situation to be any worse than it has been for a long time. However I wouldn’t buy a place within walking distance of downtown for this reason (unchanged in the last 15 years though).
2018 homeless count found 18% fewer unsheltered homeless people than 2 years prior. Not saying more shouldn’t be done, but it does appear from the limited data that there are shelter options out there. The people you see on the street are not necessarily unsheltered. With a shelter allowance of $375/month there is no way you can build enough to make that work. That has to likely double to be feasible for people to rent in high-cost markets like ours. Giving more money for shelter is also vastly simpler than getting involved in complex housing projects
https://www.crd.bc.ca/docs/default-source/housing-pdf/housing-planning-and-programs/2018-pit-count—community-report—final—july-19.pdf?sfvrsn=a92ee2ca_2
I would say indirectly yes. It’s not the price of homes per se since I doubt the Venn diagram of potentially homeless people and potential home buyers overlap all that much. However what absolutely contributes is the high cost of rent. Unless you’re in subsidized housing, you have to be making a pretty good income to rent in this city. Lack of affordable options must be contributing to homelessness.
Gee whiz, I even said I’d be OK if Saanich and the other munis chipped in to help VicPD. You call that “fuck everyone else”?
Ready, fire, aim, eh?
While the above statement is certainly true to a degree, federally incentivised housing was really only a brief experiment during the seventies, with market rentals being the historic norm. Expo 86 was the breaking point for False Creek/Fairview; until then it was the epicentre of YVR subsidized housing. Most of the subsidized housing was poorly built crap, and a precursor to the leaky condo fiasco; it probably wouldn’t have lasted without expensive remediation. Then the Socreds gave False Creek to developers for a song, and they never looked back.
https://www.vancourier.com/news/how-expo-86-changed-vancouver-1.2244357
The more recent destruction of old, affordable low-rise apartments on Skytrain lines, to facilitate higher(more expensive) density condos has been the final nail in the coffin.
I would argue that “inviting the world” has been a much more proximate cause of our housing woes. The collapse of BC’s resource-based economy killed smaller communities, forcing more people into larger centres, as well. Now the tide has reversed, with Van money distorting RE markets around the province.
I avoid downtown for the same reason.
I disagree. It is the lack of investment in government subsidized housing and co-ops across Canada, despite population growth, that is a much larger factor.
Market-based housing is not the answer and you can see this in places like Montreal that have historically had low rental rates, yet also high homelessness rates (there were large homeless camps there in 90s).
The market does not provide adequate affordable on a low income housing, and hasn’t since long before the most recent increase. I don’t foresee that it ever will. If we want people living in poverty off the streets and adequately housed a large part of the answer is in tax supported housing and social service solutions.
Relevant topic you raise, Barrister. When we envisioned moving to the Island, we had every intention of living in Vic proper for proximity to museums,restaurants, etc. After searching vainly for a Victoria property that was decently updated and realistically priced, we ended up in the North Saanich area and could not be happier with the quality of life that it affords.
I used to work as a first responder in the Downtown Eastside and am far from squeamish, but we rarely come to town. The public misery and suffering displayed on the streets of our capital is becoming oppressive. It has to be affecting tourism.
The run up in real estate has played a huge part in this. Every small town that has experienced an influx of Vancouver RE millionaires has seen their population of homeless people increase; Kelowna, Nanaimo, Victoria, Penticton, Chilliwack, all of them seem to be struggling with increasing homeless populations and attendant street crime.
Downtown Victoria now looks like the DTES did in the 90’s. It certainly doesn’t bode well for the near future. I think we’re going to see a RE capital gains tax coming down the pipeline, justified as a means to fund social housing.
I had two of my neighbours who are long standing owners of Bed and Breakfasts over last night for dinner. I was somewhat surprised that both of them tell their guests to avoid downtown at night. Both are recommending restaurants and pubs in or near Oak Bay.
Maybe not so surprising on reflection. My wife and I when we first moved here would do restaurants downtown three or four times a week. These past few years it has gone down to virtually never. Most of the time it is Oak Bay and fairly often Sidney or Brentwood Bay.
I am going to make a point of asking some of the neighbours whether this is just us or whether there is something deeper going on.
City Hall, in general.
What municipality are you looking in though?
Advice needed- some one on this site mentioned that they can pull the Reno permit records when house hunting.. how do I do that and and where do I go to get such information?
Sure it’s a marketing ploy. They know that the BC spec tax is popular, and it’s crucial for the Liberals to do well in metro Vancouver and the GTA. The latter has a foreign buyers tax but no spec tax and I’m sure they have done some polling to confirm that it would be popular there too. Note the praise Trudeau gives the BC government:
But it’s rare for governments to promise a tax increase, and even rarer for them to fail to deliver on such a promise.
Here is one bona fide issue with amalgamation. Suppose Vic city, Saanich, Langford, etc. all spend about the same amount of money per capita on services. Does that mean they will have the same property tax rates? No, because the assessment bases are different – most significantly house prices are higher closer to the centre. Thus rates tend to be lower near the centre.
Amalgamate and by law rates have to be the same everywhere. Thus the Victoria homeower will likely pay twice as much for the same services as the Langford homeowner.
This is exactly what happened as a result of the mass amalgamations in Ontario about 20 years ago.
That has nothing to do with the amalgamation issue. Oak Bay and Saanich, which UVic straddles, were pretty small in population when UVic was created in the 1960’s. What matters is the population of the metro, not the population of the municipality where it sits.
And most famously UBC is in a “small town”, if your criterion is municipal boundaries.
Ahh yes, the classic “I’ve got mine, fuck everyone else” from introvert. Also, you’re not a Sannichite. You’re a saanwich.
Imaging Victoria down town disappeared.. I wonder how does sannich fair economically..
Hi everyone,
I worked for a subcontractor on the Timberlane Reno during 2017.
This house could very well serve as the Victoria archetypal spec during the QE years.
One to watch for sure, as a Vision was built into this house during that summers solar eclipse.
Both of those are small cities. But obviously there are things that become viable with size. Transit is one that comes up a lot. Your own police force. Latitude to take action to reduce emissions for example. Look at what Vancouver is doing vs a smaller city on that front.
True. But the province is not in the habit of putting universities in small towns
On the plus side, the penthouses might be empty!
I walk by this house several times a week when out with the dog. Google street view doesn’t really show as well as it could what it’s like to live on Cordova Bay Road particularly in the summer. And that line of trees? Yeah… pretty thin and not much for sound mitigation. There is one of the better beach accesses there off Timber so that’s a plus.
The house is worth what it’s worth. $865k is a bit pricey given what other places have gone for in Cordova Bay particularly for fit & finish but clearly someone wanted it at that price. So that’s fair market value — at least for the buyer & seller.
I’m not sure a majority of Saanich residents wake up every morning grateful for their municipal golf course, but I think you’re right about the police force.
I sure wouldn’t want to have the RCMP or VicPD contracted to do the job in Saanich.
Saanich does own a golf course and have its own police force. In Courtenay certain services are provided by the Comox Valley regional district.
I guess municipalities can get together and delegate certain services to the regional district to get economies of scale without having to amalgamate.
I love Judy. And I really miss Vic Derman.
I like your mayor and council, though. I’m not being sarcastic. The protected bike lanes are awesome, and I’m glad the John A. Macdonald statue came down.
“Saanich needs to stay clear of the Victoria Shit show.”
And vice versa. Victoria would be overrun by anti-development suburban voters. No thank you to amalgamation. You guys can keep Judy Brownoff to yourselves.
Education is the responsibility of provincial government, not municipal government.
UVic is not a “service” that only exists because of a large population of taxpayers in Saanich.
@RenterInParadise
The house is in cordova bay and is roughly 200 yards from the ocean, so I can see the appeal.
As far as the noise goes, if you look on google maps they have a line of trees between the house and Cordova Bay road which actually serves as a pretty good noise barrier (This is from professional experience having worked on large scale infrastructure projects).
In all I think $860k is a fair price in the current market for that house. I would assume the house was bought in 2018 by an amature flipper who got sweaty palms with what’s going on in Vancouver and wanted to unload.
Fire department, I’m with you. But police? No thanks.
Saanich’s cops aren’t burning out from stress. And they respond to small calls, which is nice.
Call VicPD on a Saturday night complaining of a loud house party in the neighbourhood and they’ll tell ya, “Sure, we’ll get right on that after we deal with the six overdose calls, two traffic accidents, a B&E, and an assault downtown.”
But, like I said before, I’d maybe be willing, as a Saanichite, to chip in a few dollars to help out VicPD with costs, as long as all the other municipalities chipped in as well and as long as the service we receive from Saanich PD isn’t reduced.
A degree granting university.
It’s actually a massive value if it takes the people going downtown off the road, even for the people going to those other locations.
They should definitely amalgamate the police services, and fire dept for that matter.
It was about the 2018 buyer. That has to hurt when you consider the price paid plus closing costs and now realtor fees on the sell side. I’m actually surprised at how many times this unassuming, on a noisy corner lot house has sold.
I’m good with declaring that we’re pretty much out of land right now (except Langford) and keeping the SFH stock at its current density (which is already higher than most Canadian cities’ due to suites).
Oh, and I’m also good with continuing to build condos downtown. If we have to increase our population (a whole other discussion) then vertical density downtown is fine.
@Leo S.
Ahh, so it’s the penthouse condos on top that depresses the value of the townhouse. I was thinking, sub $700k is a good deal for a somewhat modern ~1400 sqft townhouse with some water views on Dallas!
No idea. Vancouver is quite a ways ahead in terms of progressive building technologies, but they have their own code.
I suspect it all boils down to the game of ‘pass the liability’. No-one wants to get burned by some new tech that turns out to be defective, even if that technology has been around in Europe for 30 years.
They’re going to have to deal with it though – the step code will surface all these issues.
OK, what fantastic services does Saanich (pop. 114,000) offer that Courtenay (pop. 25,000) doesn’t—or can’t?
@Introvert
This is a decent listen.
UBC economist Tom Davidoff and Oak Bay Mayor Kevin Murdoch discuss B.C.’s speculation and vacancy tax today on CBC Radio:
https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-4-bc-today/clip/15735860-b.c.s-speculation-and-vacancy-tax.-amazon-in-canada.
Thanks for the link. The 20 min listen is definitely thought provoking. The Capital Region has reaped many benefits from so called “foreigners” and the implementation of these taxes needs some serious tweaking.
Wouldn’t it be awkward if STEVE NASH or DAVID FOSTER moved back into town and because they derive their income in the USA and pay taxes elsewhere, they would be considered “foreigners”? It is one goofy world we live in, gotta love socialism.
Well, look at services a small city has VS what a big city has. Many things are only viable in larger cities.
We are likely a few hundred years from truly being out of land in this region that we could use to house people comfortably. But yes, single family will be a smaller and smaller portion of the pie.
Absolutely. Do you think it makes a difference how big the city is? Bigger city more set in their ways? Or not really.
I like the fact that it has 9 ceilings. I only have 1 ceiling.
As for the condos on top, there is a set of penthouse condos on this building.
Can someone tell me if this townhouse actually has another separate condo above it?
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/21114265/2-bedroom-condo-12-60-dallas-rd-victoria-james-bay
@RenterInParadise
The ouch you referenced in your post about 1150 Timber Lane is directed at whoever bought in 2018? It’s not too bad, they still got above assessment…
Quite right, the address would be inappropriate but the information you gave me is great. Thank you for your help.
modular housing and tiny houses on large lots – then sold of as strata lots (IE vancouver lane way houses) .. if you look at any old developed cities – you see lots of small apartment and flats with lots that are 20feet wide 5 story tall … just more dense properties
Saanich needs to stay clear of the Victoria Shit show. No way no thanks.
Oakbay is happy to pay its high taxes to not have to answer to anyone else.
There is no reason for amalgamation it is never a budget saving. Bigger is not better. Its just more bureaucracy.
At the very least, the core municipalities of Victoria, Saanich, Oak Bay and Esquimalt should be amalgamated for a core city population of around 250,000 which would get us a seat at the annual big city conference that Victoria has never been invited to despite the fact we are now over 400,000 people.
Was just cleaning up and reviewing some local property listings I’d saved. This one surprised me – 1150 Timber Lane in Cordova Bay finally sold. This house had been flipped several times and been a topic of discussion here on the board. Here are some numbers:
8/16/2019: $865,000
1/19/2018: $884,500
3/30/2017: $712,000
And once before the 2017 purchase in 2015 or 2016 for somewhere around $600k. There were reno’s if memory served between the 2017 & 2018 sale. Ouch….
This is a decent listen.
UBC economist Tom Davidoff and Oak Bay Mayor Kevin Murdoch discuss B.C.’s speculation and vacancy tax today on CBC Radio:
https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-4-bc-today/clip/15735860-b.c.s-speculation-and-vacancy-tax.-amazon-in-canada.
Just once, I’d love to see a “kamikaze” leader/party get elected, one that doesn’t care one iota about getting re-elected, instead caring only about fulfilling every major election promise, however radical or difficult.
No egos, no games, no backroom deals, no political calculations, no bullshit.
That would be cool.
Remember that lie from the last election campaign?
Yeah, I get that it’s literally impossible to achieve all of one’s election promises, but you can’t lie about the really big important promises and still pretend like you’re worthy of trust.
And people wonder why most people are so cynical and have such poor regard for politicians and the ways of politics.
I think the idea is that you would save on duplication of effort. For example, you don’t have 13 individual IT departments managing seperate websites for each municipality. You wouldn’t need 13 majors and councils. By combining these the idea is that you would free up resources to provide more services.
It is a marketing ploy, and it doesn’t mean that they are going to hold up their end of the bargain if reelected.
It is not prudent to post the address of the shipping container house in Fernwood by Zigloo Studio, because the house is on a private infill lot. So, it would be best to contact Zigloo Studio and ask for permission for a viewing if you are interested.
However, shipping container houses are not cheap, because the construction cost is at least twice as much per square foot as a traditional house.
https://www.zigloostudio.com/zigloo-domestique.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht0ozTA9aOc
Bad idea. Has similarities with a type of tariff, in that we can expect other countries to (eventually) reciprocate with barriers to Canadians buying property there. Will be interesting to hear the details, how it’s supposed to be legal under NAFTA (and treaties with other countries) for example.
At first, coming from Calgary, I thought it was bonkers to have this many municipalities. However, I’ve come to realize that, while many municipalities share a somewhat similar vision for their community, many do not.
For example, Metchosin’s vision for itself and goals are diametrically opposed to Colwood’s and certainly Langford’s. On the other hand, Oak Bay and Saanich seem to be fairly like-minded and I don’t think either muni’s residents would have heart attacks in great numbers were they to merge.
It’s tough, too, because no muni wants to contribute toward the cost of policing downtown Victoria, even though there’s a good argument to be made that all munis ought to be financially chipping in a bit.
We hear this all the time. But wouldn’t the services only expand by the proportion of new taxpayers (i.e., no net gain in services)?
Quick question from someone who likes to think ahead: What’s the plan going to be when most single family properties contain three households and we enter another housing crisis?
The main advantage of a train over bus is that they are less dependent on traffic around them and don’t need to stop for things like traffic lihts.. This means they are usually more accurate on arrival times. Priority lanes does mitigate this somewhat, however a user would still need to build in a buffer to take into account any delays. The more buffer you need to build in the longer your commute, which makes using a personal vehicle more attractive.
For example taking the bus from Westshore to downtown in the morning. I build in a 5-10 min buffer at my departure stop (in case the bus is early). And a 10-15 min buffer at arrival stop to take into account delays. With a train I should be able to reduce the buffer by 10-15 min, considerably reducing my commute assuming the train is on average the same speed as a bus, however I assume a train should be faster than a bus.
It needs to be faster to use public transit than taking your own vehicle to get (lots of) people to switch.
Pandering to voters. All he did was apply a mildy stimulative measure to the housing market. Bad policy IMO…
Trudeau just announced in Victoria today, a 1% Federal foreign spec tax, and also increasing the qualifying purchase price of a home for his loans program will increase to $800,000 in Vancouver, Toronto and VICTORIA.
I still think the program is daft but I’m glad we’re included in the big 3 crisis cities. Props for putting us on the map!
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/trudeau-promises-to-add-speculation-tax-on-foreign-buyers-if-re-elected-1.1315217#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=twitter&_gsc=wE8O9oE
I use to be pro Train/ tram guy. However; as i see technology advancement progresses, I think we should build better priority lanes. Chances are, we will get automated busses before train project even breaks ground here .
The priority lanes can be easily converted to automated vehicle lanes. .. this will also reduce the needs to build more infrastructure to integrate automation
I know that somewhere in this area there is a home built from containers. I would love to see it if anyone knows where it is?
There is generally a fair bit of resistance within the municipal building departments to ‘new’ building techniques (prefab, mass timber, etc.). I’ve had to run the gauntlet with inspectors several times. The code books are catching up, but I wouldn’t say the building departments are eager to make life easy for the new (to us) techniques mentioned above.
Having said that, overall victoria has been pretty good at letting me do some weird stuff.
Part of a train line should also involve a major bus hub at the end of the line (or at a station near the end of the line). This way people could transfer to a bus to Uptown, UVic or Cook St Village. Also having an option of taking your bike on the train, would encourage people to bike the final miles(s).
Victoria’s garden suites are one more good reason to buy in Oak Bay rather than Victoria.
Continuing my question from the last thread does anyone know if there are any real stats that breakdown the number and geographical locations of jobs in Victoria? My general impression (which may well be wrong) is that we dont have any major concentration of jobs in a central area compared to something like Toronto;s office towers.
My question arises because when topics like the train come up people talk like getting right downtown is the issue whereas I really wonder how many people actually work within ten blocks of the Empress. Having a train run to Vic West is of limited value if you are working at Uvic or Uptown or even Cook Street village.
Planning any transportation route without a detailed employment density map seems rather peculiar to me. So it likely exists but I just cannot seem to find it.