Space
Consider first, how slight a shelter is absolutely necessary. […] I used to see a large box by the railroad, six feet long by three wide, in which the labourers locked up their tools at night, and it suggested to me that every man who was hard pushed might get such a one for a dollar, and, having bored a few auger holes in it, to admit the air at least, get into it when it rained and at night, and hook down the lid, and so have freedom in his love, and in his soul be free. This did not appear the worst, nor by any means a despicable alternative. You could sit up as late as you pleased, and, whenever you got up , go abroad without any landlord or house-lord dogging you for rent.
Many a man is harassed to death to pay the rent of a larger and more luxurious box who would not have frozen to death in such a box as this.
While Henry David Thoreau’s suggestion of a 6×3 box was too extreme even for him (his cabin ending up around 150sqft), I did find this passage thought provoking. How many people add a lot of money stress to their lives to stretch to a larger living space than they can really afford?
Unfortunately these days you won’t get far by squatting on prime pond-front land and Mr. Thoreau would have to pass the owner builder exam if he tried to rebuild, but how much space do we really need? And is more of it really worth the extra life-energy that will be required to pay?
As Canadians we trail only the US in terms of average living space per person at 618 sqft so it seems that so far we have chosen to load on the debt instead of doing with less. In the condo market, sizes have definitely been scaling down in recent builds, but that is likely more an attempt by developers to keep sales moving as prices escalate rather than a response to a change in consumer preferences.
In our household (not counting the suite) we have about 350sqft per person of finished and unfinished space or double that if we don’t count the kids. That seems plenty at the moment, although certainly economies of scale help and I would likely feel cramped in 350sqft by myself.
Given the success of the Janion micro-condos that average around that size (which despite the AirBnB restrictions are still selling at over $1000/sqft) it’s been a little surprising that there haven’t been a lot more micro-condo projects in Victoria. Average condo sizes are dropping but we don’t see lot of new micro-projects being proposed.
In your house hunt, how much space are you looking for? What’s the balance between cost and space to stretch out?
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Monday numbers: https://househuntvictoria.ca/2019/08/19/august-19th-market-update/
James: it seems to have sold pretty close to assessment. Actually a lot of sales seem close to assessment.
Notice that sucker finally sold, took a while. There was another one down the street, 1895 maybe? San Juan where they took the sign down. What’s the deal w/ it?
1873 San Juan. Original price 1.2M, reduced to $1.1M. Sold for $985k.
Assessed $1.07M
@ks112: so do some men
some women require 200sqft just for closet space…..
Interesting topic and I appreciate the opportunity to vote. Before moving to Victoria, I would have said about 750 sq ft per person. As we ended up squeezing into a rental thinking short term, we’ve had a real epiphany moment. Hubs and I both had our own separate offices previously (self-employed) and have squeezed into one room. Multiple family rooms are downsized to just one. 2 dining areas (formal and eat-in kitchen) also downsized. Unloaded all those things that didn’t fit and keeping what we really, honestly and truly want/need has been invigorating. I voted in the 400-500 sq ft category. Storage is the big issue as others have mentioned though I’ve even downsized lots of “only comes out 1-4x / year” category. The kids weren’t too happy initially w/ the size of residence but have grown to appreciate the simplicity of less clutter in their lives as well.
The default implementation of the comment voting system actually had both up and downvotes. I wrote some CSS to hide the downvote button because I didn’t like the idea of non-mainstream ideas getting downvoted. Very hard to get people to use downvote buttons as a “this comment is abusive/aggressive/clearly wrong” rather than an “i disagree with this comment” which is how they are usually used. I would rather have people leave their own comments to explain why they disagree and deal with the fights on a case by case basis.
I’m not sure I agree. Comments that are nothing but an insult or putdown don’t often get that many votes. The comments that get voted up a lot are often pretty decent comments; sometimes thoughtful stand-alone comments, other times pithy rebuttals on an issue under discussion.
I do agree that down-voting would not add much.
My new math gets 1300 sq ft.
850sq ft living space for a family of 3 soon to be 4. It’s a poorly laid out very old house, and space is definitely a problem. I think the square footage is do-able in a newer built open concept home with good storage options but right now we move bins of clothing every season into and out of our garage because the closits in our 2 bedrooms are so small. There is no room for a kitchen table let alone hosting guests. We’ve had a good time in our home but with the addition of children it will be refreshing to move into something bigger.
I actually think the comment voting is, in practice, lame. It’s true, you’ll find that the comments that tend to get the most votes (15+) are very often comments about other users rather than standalone comments about RE. Adding a negative button will amplify the us/them effect and some people will probably down-vote the comments of others simply because it was made by a particular person.
IMO a far better tool to add to this site is the ability to block user posts from being visible. I find it’s generally easy enough to scroll on past certain posters, but it would sure make it cleaner. It wouldn’t be difficult, but I get the impression Leo is unlikely to do it.
Durran. Actually between the kids and their friends and visitors we are averaging about six people about 80 % of the time or more.For the last two weeks we had eight people plus ourselves and now we are down to just six. I find myself in the shop running my lathe just to get some quiet. My advise to young people is that when you retire move but dont tell your family and friends where you are living. It is an exaggeration but sometimes I feel like I have hosted half the Toronto bar here in Victoria. The house is not 9000 sq ft either.
Patriotz
Thanks for the clarification
Apartment may be purpose built rental or condo. Condo is 20%.
Barrister –
Your forthcoming ‘small town’ digs in Europe are one thing, but aren’t you at something like 4500 sq ft per person right now??
We’re a family of 4 in a new house, 640 sq ft per person. It’s a good size, feels big to some people, but without being really crazy like those 4000-6000 ft places all over the suburban acreages. Again, the living space is one thing, but storage quite another. The double garage is busy with workshop tools, bikes, camping and outdoor gear, lawnmower & gardening stuff, strollers and other child-moving devices, etc. Our crawl space is very tight (3 ft height), and there’s a biannual expedition down there to unearth / reseal the off-season stuff (Thanksgiving/Halloween/Christmas/Easter decorations). Without the garage and shed, we’d be getting rid of a lot of stuff by necessity, or maybe the guest room would be converted to storage.
Note – the floor space is one thing, but ceiling height and volume makes a big difference too. Our suite is only 425 sq ft or so, but vaulted 10-12 ft ceiling and good windows makes it feel airy and bright, and we had lots of interest renting it for $1400/month.
Patriotz
I’m not sure what I’m missing, the data chart numbers appear as below:
Single people in SFD= 32.4%
Single people in apartment >/< 5 storeys = 50.3%
Duplexes, RVs, tents, fridge cartons, etc. make up the rest.
is that a good thing long term – if population starts to decline due to lack of reproduction.. who will buy?.. look at Japan for historical data
https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00460/empty-homes-in-japan-hit-a-record-high.html
My wife and I and two young girls live in about 1200sq ft of our house and suits us pretty well. Storage is limited but it does limit the acquisition of crap a bit which is nice. House is just 2 floors of 900 sq ft with 500sq ft suite in the basement. Sure the girls have to share a room for now but some day when we need the 3rd bedroom and second bathroom, (where am I going to pee when I have two teenage daughters?) i’ll knock the wall down to the suite and re-claim the space.
@Barrister – funnily (is that a word?) enough my wife is a citizen of Liechtenstein as well. We’re planning a trip next summer to compete requirements for our youngest daughter’s citizenship there. I guess if you go before they are 5 yrs and apply, you can obtain citizenship for them as well. We may try to move there for a few years in the not too distant future so it’ll be interesting to hear how it all goes for you.
No, your source says single detached house is the most common, at about 32%, versus 20% in a condo (owned or rented). See Chart 7 and adjacent text.
Interesting lead, Leo. Let me twist it a bit: If you could afford to buy any house / home in Victoria that you wanted, regardless of size, (1) how much would you pay to buy it [bearing in mind maintenance, labor to keep it up, time to maintain it, cost of utilities, etc.], (2) what is the maximum interior square footage, and (3) what is the maximum you would be wiling to pay for annual property taxes.
Example: (1) $2.0M; (2) 4,000 and (3) $10K.
This questions exits “need” and enters “want”, in reality terms.
Lastly, Leo, here is a suggestion: you have “thumbs up” for those who like a post, why not add “thumbs down” for those who disapprove / “dislike” – that way, less of a need to negatively comment in narrative fashion and it may promote civility.
Unlikely to be much more, since the number of SFH in Victoria CMA exceeds the number of households with >= 3 members. And we know that some of those >= 3 member households aren’t living in SFH.
StatsCan data showing that the number of singles living alone has doubled over last 35 years. Most common housing type amongst singles – condo. If this trend continues, average household size will decline. Maybe all those condo specuvestors are on to something.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/75-006-x/2019001/article/00003-eng.htm
This is from a couple years ago but still should be relevant:
https://www.vancourier.com/canadians-enjoy-second-most-living-space-per-person-global-survey-1.9905436
We have 2100sq ft. for a family of four- it feels palatial, and many visitors comment on how big it feels. Interestingly, as an older (1913) house, it is not “open concept”, which seems to counter-intuitively make the place feel larger, especially on the main floor. we also have a unfinished basement for storage only, which makes the whole house more liveable- I find that many newer designs scrimp on storage for bikes, Christmas decorations etc. and that makes it difficult for small spaces- not having a place to store things one uses 1-4x.year really clutters one’s main living space.
“I expect the average household size in a single family dwelling is more than 2.2”
Yes, the average household size is probably bigger for SFD, however I assume the average sq ft of a SFD is more than the 1500-2000 range.
I would guess the smaller SFD occupancy rate would be right around that 2.2 average.
Living in well-designed small spaces is not a result of marketing or hovel living but, largely, economics. There is a lot of research on use of space and subjective well-being. For the most part, people adapt. However, it turns out that in as social inequality increases, people get greater satisfaction not from more space, but having more space than others, men have a slightly greater satisfaction from some more space than women, and moving to a larger space doesn’t have much impact on life satisfaction overall (specifically it may if you come from unsatisfactory housing). Social and community connections are way more important to life satisfaction.
Found this documentary on California housing interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBjXUBMkkE8
I am moving to a small town and I dont have a clue how many square feet the place actually is but I am pretty sure that it does not fall into the small house category. I do recall one architect mention that the small condos are the modern version of the medieval peasant hovel but that with the right marketing that you can convince people that they are being virtuous. Interesting take from an industry insider.
We’re just under 400pp with a young kid (2br 1000sqft upper with a small finished garage) and we’re comfy enough but I would love a proper dining area instead of the eat-in kitchen corner we have, so with a family of 3 my vote is for 500pp.
With a family of 4, I think I’d be happy with 400pp. That additional bedroom is only 150-200sqft, so another 200-250sqft for a dining area sounds great.
I expect the average household size in a single family dwelling is more than 2.2
With the average household being 2.2 ppl in Victoria (2016 census) a new house in the 1500 to 2000 sq ft range offers a lot of sq ft per person….
https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/prof/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=CMACA&Code1=935&Geo2=PR&Code2=59&Data=Count&SearchText=victoria&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&TABID=1
Are they though? I also see a lot of new construction out there at 1500-2000sqft to keep the total cost down.
For sure infill tends to be 3000+
Good point. Many housing markets track home prices by $/sq ft (instead of only absolute prices). It would be interesting in a market where absolute prices are described as “flat” to see if price per sq ft is also flat.
We have 350 square feet pp. It works well and is very comfortable. We can seat 16 for dinner and regularly have movie nights on the big screen projector with friends. Depends a lot on layout and personality. Also a fan of the “Not so Big House” by Susanka.
While SFD houses are generally getting bigger, they make up a decreasing proportion of the housing stock. Many contributors to this forum have pointed out this stat.
Great. Those are all good programs and shouldn’t be stopped.
Not sure what you are basing your predictions on @guest_62354 . My observation is that houses are only getting more sq ft. A lot of the new homes here in the Westshore have lots of sq ft on tiny lots.
Maybe condos in the core might be getting smaller, but the overall trend seems to be that houses are getting larger in comparison to the houses previous generations lived in.
Well I don’t. I don’t even think it’s likely we’ll see the end of existing subsidies for underutilization, such as property tax deferral, legacy assessment, and the senior’s homeowner’s grant.
And I have to say it’s a bit lame to resort to imaginary future scenarios to criticize a government.
I’ve lived in as little as 100 sq.ft. with one other person, albeit with an outdoor kitchen and shower. Granted, I was much younger, and we were building a house. I think it lasted for 6 months or so, then we moved into a palatial space that was well over 150 sq. ft. The fact that it was mortgage and rent free made it bearable. If I were young and single in this market, I could see living in a tiny house, boat or RV. Or just leaving the province. I think it’s safe to predict that successive generations will be living in something that more closely resembles my early experiences than Grant’s current digs.
Gretchen, stop trying to make fetch happen!
We have circa 600 sq ft per person at our house. Currently living elsewhere with a fairly well designed 300 sq ft per person plus some storage areas. I feel like I could live a pretty fulfilling life in this much space provided I had adequate storage space for bikes.
costs per sq ft are 250k min and that is not high-end stuff. Add land and people need to learn to live with less. 400 sq each for a family of 4 is not cray and where affordability is going. People who have 3k pls houses have rooms they never go in I bet.
A family of 4 does not need 800 sq ft of storage. People have too much shit…The more room you have for crap the more crap people buy…
How many tables do you really need to eat at. How many couches does your ass need. How many TV`s does your eyes require…All about choices
At 3100 sqft on two floors plus another ~1000 developed in the basement we’ve admittedly got a big place. But we’re making use of all of it. I run my business out of my house and need the appropriate office space. We have a dedicated workout space, saving us from spending money on a gym membership. I have a theatre room too because, hey theatres with wide screen projectors are really nice! We’ve got 2 kids and regularly have guests stay extended periods. So while many people may find our place a bit of an extravagance, to us “our house is our castle”. We pay for it though – high upfront cost, high ongoing maintenance costs, high taxes. But we love it and wouldn’t change a thing.
I voted 1000sqft + 🙂
Good post LeoS. Living space, per person, depends on many factors, for example:
– design floorplan
– access to outside space (patio, balcony, yard)
– quiet space for work, reading, contemplation
– functional spaces with dual purpose design
– storage space purpose-built to eliminate clutter
Having said that, my family needs a minimum of 600sqft per person, plus an additional 200sqft per person for storage, and a patio or yard for outdoor space.
The architect Sarah Susanka has written several books on this subject, her first book is: “Not So Big House, A blueprint for the way we really live”
https://susanka.com/not-so-big-house/
The poll is misleading. If I was living by myself, I would have a higher sq per person need than my current situation with partner and 3 kids.
I would still need a kitchen if I was by myself (maybe smaller than my current one, but not 1/5 the the size).
Also my parents are from out of town, so I would want a spare room for when they visit. I work from home so would need an office. So being single I could see the need for around 1000 sq ft. Before we had kids 1600 sq ft was plenty, but as soon as we had our first kid my office turned into the spare room, which made it awkward when the grandparents were visiting.
With the 5 of us we now have 2900 sq ft and plenty of room. So under 600 sq ft per person.
So the answer people are giving to the poll probably depends on their current home environment.
I think I’m gonna be OK.
lol introvert, hopefully you can afford to do that.
Patrick if the NDP ever got a majority. Anything is possible.
I see the speaker is up to some fun again.
Shall we expect new govt (property envy) surtaxes based on sq foot dwelling use per person over an acceptable govt determined standard?
750 to 1000 per person so a family needs 3000 to 4k. That is leading.
People need to start to deal in financial reality. No one I mean no one needs 1000 sq per person.
Or, if I’m really hooped, I could do what you do: rent out the whole house while I rent somewhere else.