September 11 Market Update

Now this is more like it… when one compares to 1513 Bank St which is now listed at $1,798k – which is probably still overpriced for what that is. 1641 Wilmot Pl. in OB was listed at the same as Bank St, but sells in just two days for $1.930k.

This is what I’m talking about when a rare quality home comes up in the core. It shows that there are discerning folk who obviously are still out there w/ the means (bidding war). Tired of looking at all the junk in the core… tired of old places that need extensive reno’s which abound in this town – Like 2584 Lincoln Rd, totally dated with it’s one bathroom, but still priced over a million! Then, there’s that mysterious ‘cache’ that comes from being steps from the OB village… Myself, I’d rather be near the beach, but it takes all kinds…

@ Island Scott

“I don’t think it’s cost effective for Hydro to pay 10 cents per kilowatt/hour for it.”

Looks like Hydro have been trying to make a buck trading power and losing their shirt, or rather our shirts, in the process.

They’d probably do well to install some combined cycle gas turbines that generate power when required for around 5 cents a unit. We have lots of gas but no export customers so we might as well burn it ourselves.

Correction, 9 are bankruptcy, 2 are foreclosure. That’s still a new trend of consumer debt problems as I haven’t seen that many bankruptcies in one week. Never seen the list that long for debtors having their shit confiscated by the courts either. 14 of those.

Would I say this to someone’s face during a friendly but heated debate over a beer?

Precisely.

And what is Introvert but a persona for you to hide behind.

John Dollar is a persona that has never gotten into ugly character assassination. That’s how Just Jack was killed off by you. You dragged Just Jack down into the gutter. And that’s not a comfortable place to be.

I am a better person than that. And that is why Just Jack is not John Dollar.

And if in the future I should chose to change my blog name or anyone should chose a different name, which is my and their privilege, I will do so but at this time my conscious is clean. I have treated all bloggers, including you, with respect.

I suppose it bothers you a great deal, having spent all that time logging Just Jack’s comments. But the comments of Just Jack are outdated and now irrelevant and are not the comments of John Dollar no matter how hard you try to tie them together. John Dollar is a fictional persona that I created to be fair, equitable, reliable and reasonable to all.

They are separate personas.

Now what about you?

omg, here is Seattle’s equivalent to HHV, complete with comments and everything:

http://seattlebubble.com/blog/

Dalai Lama:

https://twitter.com/dalailama/status/561109313154842626?lang=en

“To be aware of a single shortcoming within oneself is more useful than to be aware of a thousand in somebody else. Rather than speaking badly about people and in ways that will produce friction and unrest in their lives, we should practice a purer perception of them, and when we speak of others, speak of their good qualities.”

Dalai Lama quotes (Head of the Dge-lugs-pa order of Tibetan Buddhists, 1989 Nobel Peace Prize, b.1935)

My partner and I were at the Tibetan Kitchen last night, and I saw the following excerpt of a saying on the wall. Just loved it.

I don’t take lessons from walls.

The quote goes on, but man. Sure got me thinking…

Good job. We look forward to seeing the new you.

Just google the Courts of British Columbia and then look under Supreme Court and select Victoria, Vancouver and/or New Westminster.

The downside is it would encourage a culture of allowing your fingers to outpace your mind.

I had no idea culture-shifting was part of HHV’s mandate!

Also technical challenges of deferred visibility that aren’t easy to solve.

Fair enough.

For those that are watching, the number of foreclosure applications in Victoria is on the rise.

Has it gone from one all the way to two?

You can look at the court cases every Monday and Thursday in Victoria’s Court house.

Actually, we all have better things to do. Like point out your deficiencies, for example.

Introvert, you killed Just Jack years ago.

I did? I have that kind of power?

Just as you’ve tried for years to kill this blog.

Killing your bad theories is not the same as killing the blog, however much it feels that way to you.

Time to grow up.

It’s good for us to be aware of your prejudice against children.

The BC Hydro Public Power Legacy and Heritage Contract Act requires Hydro to purchase power even at a loss. With the landscape changing to solar and wind, I wonder if that Act will change.

All good points, islandscott. Also, if home battery storage technology ever takes off (see: Tesla’s Powerwall) that will forever alter BC Hydro’s business and its relationship to us.

@john Dollar

Could you provide a link to Victoria’s foreclosure applications? This is a sad stat. to watch, but interesting and relevant one with increasing interest rates.

Thanks.

Therefore, we might as well make ourselves feel at home in the uncertainty and rejoice in throwing anecdotes about, revel in posing unsubstantiated hypotheses, and delight in making baseless predictions.

Motivational poster for misanthropy. But the logic is sound.

Introvert, you killed Just Jack years ago. Just as you’ve tried for years to kill this blog.

Time to grow up.

I agree. I’d rather have it than not though – otherwise it’s just a “sky is falling” or “to the moon” statement. At least the argument can be (often) quantified and debated.

But don’t be seduced by what can be quantified, when what can be quantified has little predictive value, as history shows.

Therefore, we might as well make ourselves feel at home in the uncertainty and rejoice in throwing anecdotes about, revel in posing unsubstantiated hypotheses, and delight in making baseless predictions.

Even with numbers that support growth or decline, we have no idea what real estate prices will do.

I agree. I’d rather have it than not though – otherwise it’s just a “sky is falling” or “to the moon” statement. At least the argument can be (often) quantified and debated.

Just curious what their metrics were

The explanation is partly here:

The Moody’s Analytics forecast
model for the Brookfield RPS house price
indexes compares current house prices to
long-term trend prices which are influenced
by income, population size, the overall new
house and land price index, and for a few
metro areas, the deflated stock market price
index as a proxy for national wealth (there
is no easily available data for international
wealth inflows that engage with the housing
market). The divergence between the current
price and this long-term trend price determines
the degree of over- or undervaluation,
which is an important driver of the house
price forecast.

Seems like they do have a crystal ball, but I’m not sure it works here. My guess is not.
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20170425005270/en/Moody%E2%80%99s-Analytics-Earns-Fourth-Crystal-Ball-Award

Moody’s is predicting 5-year decline in Victoria house prices. Toronto is predicted to rise.

I would argue that price predictions are of comparatively little value unless there’s numbers that support growth or decline. The predictive record for almost any agency that outputs them is pretty bad.

So why does Vancouver hold steady, while Victoria declines? And why 5%, and not 1% or 25% Why does Toronto grow, despite a glaring disconnect from the economy underpinning the housing? More QE? More speculation? More wealthy FIs? Mass migration? Just curious what their metrics were and how they enabled their conclusions. I haven’t actually read the report; the article was of course just an overview.

James’s contention that IT professionals can make more in the private sector is not “brain vomit” it is well supported by facts.

That wasn’t how I understood his response. My assertion was that public sector employees overall earn more than private sector employees. His assertion was that I was dreaming because he could make more in the private sector. I agree that might be the case for him, but it is not generally the case.

James – even the quote you provided supports this. I’m not sure how my quote was incorrect given that it is exact, but then there is the pension, hours of work and benefits and retirement age to consider as well.

I agree the reports could be subject to bias. I looked at the CUPE report, prepared by a CUPE staff economist, as the Fraser Report was prepared by their in-house economist, which makes a couple of good points but also fails to account for pension, benefits, hours of work, date of retirement in a credible way at all imo despite the availability of this data in stats can reports. Even CUPE agrees there is a greater gender wage gap in the private sector and lower skilled jobs are much better compensated in the public sector.

And, yes, back to housing. Moody’s is predicting 5-year decline in Victoria house prices. Toronto is predicted to rise.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-housing-moodys-1.4287522

I can’t beet you Introvert. I’ve decided to join you.

Nobody makes a 30 unless they’re team leads.

ya they’re rare in Info Systems. Even then, a lot of Leads are 24s. Tonnes of IS 13s and 18s. Low pay, if you ask me. The advantage over private generally is comparative security both in job and retirement. Depends on your own wants and needs, I guess – which side works for you.

Just a brief note on the market for houses this month in the core. There have only been 51 sales in the last 13 days. If this pace continues we may be near a ten year low for house sales in the core for Septmeber.

If you find reliable data that supports your information then we can have an interesting discussion instead of dealing with brain vomit masquerading as logic.

Your assertation was that “Public employees earn a wage premium for the same private sector position”. I am a public employee, I would make way more in the private sector.

You’re quoting the Fraser institute, first off, and secondly you’re doing it wrong:

Canada’s government workers (from the federal, provincial, and local governments)
were found to enjoy a 9.7 percent wage premium, on average, over
their private sector counterparts in 2013. When unionization status is factored
into the analysis, the wage premium for the government sector declines
to 6.2 percent.

You really must like the taste of your own vomit.

Computer and information systems managers
Public sector average = 79,690
Private sector average = 101,546
Public sector “premium” = -21.5%

Yup. Many tech positions in BCGov have to add a “TMA” (temporary market adjustment) to the base pay to even begin to make it competitive. Many don’t, though. Even where they do, it can be a struggle as they tend to top out at Grid 30.

totoro quotes Fraser institute and CFIB neither of which I would regard as an unbiased source on this issue. The Fraser Institute supports researchers that deny the health effects of air pollutants (i.e. McKitrick) and deny climate change (too many “researchers” to list). While each piece of work needs to be judged on its own merits a source that has repeatedly demonstrated a questionable allegiance to truth should be scrutinized extra hard.

I can quote you a CUPE report that finds that the public sector premium is very small and mostly accounted for by higher wages for low paid jobs like cook, cleaner, admin etc. CUPE is obviously a highly biased source on this issue as well.

James’s contention that IT professionals can make more in the private sector is not “brain vomit” it is well supported by facts.

Computer and information systems managers
Public sector average = 79,690
Private sector average = 101,546
Public sector “premium” = -21.5%

Above a certain income your in a certain class.

There are classes of proofreading ability, too.

I disagree, their re-numeration should be scrutinized…

You mean remuneration, genius.

One thing I would like to see is the cost of a visit to your doctor. What they charge the medical plan.

That’s not a bad idea, but we would also need to know other information, such as that doctor’s overhead costs to run the clinic, before anyone could make an informed judgment on relative fairness.

This is awesome:

Home solar farm is a worthwhile investment

http://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/columnists/peter-nix-home-solar-farm-is-a-worthwhile-investment-1.22685005

You’re dreaming.

Oh god. More accusations that I’m making things up or living in a bubble. Accusations based on no research into the data whatsoever as far as I can tell, but a generalization from anecdotal personal experience that is statistically unreliable. Please, I implore you, research your assertions first. Just a few clicks away is all the data you need. There is no secret vault or magic power involved. Just a tiny bit of time. If you find reliable data that supports your information then we can have an interesting discussion instead of dealing with brain vomit masquerading as logic.

This is a fact based on reliable data. Your particular profession might be better compensated if you moved to the private sector as an employee or independent contractor, but most are not. Overall the differential is over 10% and much more when you consider the benefits.

The federal government had the largest compensation gap, with a salary premium of 13 per cent, growing to 33.2 per cent once benefits were accounted for;
The salary premium for municipal employees was 8.9 per cent, growing to 22.3 per cent with benefits;
The salary premium for provincial government employees was 5.5 per cent, growing to 21.2 per cent with benefits;
Among the various public sectors, Canada Post employees had one of the biggest salary premiums of 16.6 per cent, growing to 36.9 per cent with benefits;
For 2010, annual wages and salaries for the public sector ranged from $51,029 to $69,833, compared to $48,872 to $61,688 for private sector employees.

http://www.cfib-fcei.ca/english/article/6069-government-wages.html
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/comparing-government-and-private-sector-compensation-in-canada.pdf

Where we disagree is how much impact these changes will have on people’s desire to start and maintain businesses.

Yes, that is fine. The future is yet to unfold and maybe there will be other workarounds or motivating factors besides a reduction in productivity that will mitigate the impact a bit. Certainly people go into business for themselves for reasons other than increased income, but those benefits are also weighed against after tax income differentials and risk by most who go on to have successful businesses, in my experience and opinion.

Do you mean work less? That is not less productive. May even be more productive. Productivity is output per unit input. In this case the input is their labour. Productivity would only fall if their output fell more than their labour.

I’m looking at productivity a bit differently I think? I agree with the input output thing – basic ROI. What I think the impact will be is that more small business owners will spend fewer hours working, re-invest less in the business and other investments, and the hours that they do work will be maximized for ROI. A big part of this will be tax efficiency. The incentive to work more, take more risk, and, in particular, to create more jobs by hiring employees is reduced.

As an example, if the changes go through Marko’s income is going to decline pre-tax, but might only decline a bit post-tax. Without the changes he be incentivised to continue growing his business and working rather than taking time off, with or without his lower return efforts. Even if he cuts out less productive stuff he is still working and earning less as a result of the tax changes. And presumably investing less and spending less as well.

You don’t get any of those things because you don’t pay into them.

You don’t get them because you are not permitted to pay into them, nor is your corporation permitted to contribute to them on your behalf unless you become an employee of the corporation and don’t own 40% or more of the voting shares.

A self-employed person or an incorporated small business owner who owns 40% or more of the shares can’t set up a private pension for themselves. No RSP match either. They can’t contribute to EI and be covered for wage replacement if their business goes under. No CPP permanent disability either because you don’t qualify via the rules. If you are a single self-employed person or only have one employee forget medical and dental benefits to0 – you don’t qualify for a private plan. You can get private life insurance and very, very expensive private disability insurance with many limitations.

This morning Jack Knox explores the median household incomes of the municipalities in our region:

Head to Highlands, where the earnings are good

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/jack-knox-head-to-highlands-where-the-earnings-are-good-1.22692584

Public employees earn a wage premium for the same private sector position of over 10% plus they have better benefits, more time off, and a great pension.

You’re dreaming. I can make way more as an independent contractor (i charge out currently at $100 an hour) than I do as a developer in the public sector. Any developer here today could get a least a $50 000 bump by leaving, they don’t do it for other reasons that you’ve listed.

This is what makes the self-employed upset with the changes. They thought there was a way to plan for the differential if they worked hard and were successful on their own merits and they accepted that if they failed there is no pension or EI to bail them out and it would be their responsibility. And no CPP disability or medical EI either if they become permanently disabled along the way and no paid maternity leave either.

You don’t get any of those things because you don’t pay into them.

totoro

I am completely in agreement that small business owners are important to the economy. I also agree that relatively few have the aptitude to start and run a successful business. I am in awe of several of my friends who have built amazing businesses and after all their hard work I certainly don’t begrudge that they earn many, many multiples of my salary. That is a deserved payoff for their hard work.

Where we disagree is how much impact these changes will have on people’s desire to start and maintain businesses. You think it will be a huge impact. I think it will be minor. We could both quote experts to support our opinions.

Anecdote alert – Of the many folks I know who start and run businesses few of them were primarily motivated by money to start or take over the business. Not that they don’t want to make money – they do. However they did not balance the financial pros and cons of public sector work first before going into business. Their reasons for starting/running businesses are varied: want to call the shots, love the work they do, have ideas that they can best pursue in their own business, loyalty to clients, taking over a family business.

If the changes go through established doctors and professionals will likely become less productive and pay less tax.

Do you mean work less? That is not less productive. May even be more productive. Productivity is output per unit input. In this case the input is their labour. Productivity would only fall if their output fell more than their labour.

Even without these tax changes many physicians work fewer hours than doctors 20 years ago. Many factors leading to that. One of them is a healthy demand for work life balance. Many highly paid professionals would increasingly like to take some of their “wealth” in the form of leisure or time spent with young family rather than dollars.

Subtly shifted the narrative.

I don’t see it that way. Just another fact to consider by those who might want to work for themselves and start small businesses. Add it to the tax and other risk pile.

No need to exaggerate. The actual small business percentage is 74.8 in BC

I agree that small business is defined as businesses with less than 1oo employees and that these businesses provide about 75% of all private sector jobs in BC. I didn’t realize the stat I used included medium sized businesses as well. 98% of businesses in Canada have less than 100 employees.

Perhaps you can agree that 75% of all private sector jobs means that the owners of small businesses are important to the economy and there needs to be enough incentive to create and maintain such businesses. You may not agree that these tax changes will impact that. My best guess is that they will. I do also believe that these changes will eventually impact house prices and other types of investments negatively as well, which some might support.

Perhaps you can also agree that not everyone has the aptitude or interest or skill set required to own and operate their own business. Many people don’t want this responsibility to start with or couldn’t handle it if they had it. There needs to be enough incentive to attract the type of person who is able to grow and maintain a business successfully for the system to work well. These types of skills are readily transferable to upper level management in government or other institutions with stable jobs and benefits.

lumping incorporated doctors with start up small businesses is ludicrous

There are significant differences that should be separately analyzed from a tax policy perspective, but the tax changes impact them all, and add in other incorporated professionals, all incorporated small businesses including farmers.

The specific ways in which they are impacted and how they will respond to those impacts will vary based on the circumstances, but everyone is going to weigh the ROI on effort and determine whether working harder and having employees is really worth it any more.

If the changes go through established doctors and professionals will likely become less productive and pay less tax. Newly qualified physicians are way less likely to head to the north to set up a practice or become GPs. They are going to work in a walk-in in an urban center where they have set hours and no continuing care obligations or hospital rounds. Or they are going to take hospital positions. Or they are going to go to the US. Or they’ll be locums and take long periods of time off in between gigs if they don’t have big student loans to pay off.

Other professionals and entrepreneurial sorts will respond in similar ways. Why work hard and create jobs that require the management of others if you are paying up to 93% in income tax? No thanks. I’ll stay at home and garden, spend time with family and live within the slightly less after-tax means for far less work and stress by keeping my business even smaller and using a few contract staff when I need it. There already is a bit of incentive in the system to do just this.

As for tax fairness, if government really wants to set a fair system they wouldn’t just be evaluating incorporated entities to create a potential gain of 25 million, they’d be evaluating all lucrative tax measures that reduce the divide between the various wealth brackets, including the use of trust funds and taxation of stock options and the principle residence exemption as well. And, in my opinion, one of the biggest ones: inheritance. The US taxation rate is 40%. In Canada it is nothing.

While perhaps unrelated and definitely a slightly unfair narrative shift given that they are largely figureheads, Trudeau had a trust fund and Mourneau is a potential beneficiary of his wife’s trust fund. Mourneau also owns 30 million in stock in the family business and both inherited significant amounts. It would be interesting to see if either of them rearranged their affairs, particularly in relation to their minor children, prior to the announcement of these changes.

http://o.canada.com/news/justin-trudeau-admits-that-he-won-the-lottery-with-1-2-million-inheritance-and-successful-speaking-business
http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/conflict-of-interest-screen-enforced-on-bill-morneau-to-keep-him-from-participating-in-family-business

Most landlords of secondary suites do not declare their rental income and they don’t declare their capital gains when they sell their ‘principal residence’. It’s time to crackdown on tax cheats.

The majority of people I know and have come across declare rental income.

As far as capital gains on suites within primary residences we still don’t have a clear answer for this.

The last few rounds of tax increases have directly impacted me but overall it has been positive primarily due to time off travelling. First of all, Trudeau increased personal tax which lead me to taking time off work (less productivity) and then incorporating (less productivity as my accounting is now more complicated and I have less time to sell homes). Now follow it up with these new federal changes plus the new provincial budget tax increases!

Instead of losing sleep over like my doctor friends I’ve just slowly adapted. For example, I stopped doing cash back and my buyer business dropped off. Only accounting for MLS recorded buyers deals for easy of numbers

2013 – 38
2014 – 37
2015 – 37
2016 – 28

So buying end dropped 20%, but I am making substantially more because I am no longer doing the cash back business model. The crappy thing about the 50% cash back model is the 50% you do make hustling the government takes 50% of that so you basically work for 1/4 🙂 I’ll pass on that.

With these new round of rules I’ve decided in the New Year I am just going to totally scrap my mere posting business and double my time off from about 6 weeks to 12 weeks off. Driving out to Langford to mere post a home for $899 (minus $350ish in expenses) on a Saturday afternoon is just not worth it anymore when it is actually $899-$350 expenses minus get slaughtered on taxes at the end of the day as well. Might as well just not offer it and further decrease productivity.

If I was a GP I think I would adapt as well. I would take some botox courses, offer injections, and cut back on seeing actual sick patients or just make sure I work less, don’t incorporate, stay under the $150,000, and max out on RRSPs and things aren’t so bad on the tax front. Don’t open a practice so when you start getting close to a $150,000 you can stop your walk-in clinic schedule and take off for a few months 🙂

I think the key is to live well within your means then you can adapt easily. If you make 300k a year and you live a 250k lifestyle it is difficult to cut back to 150k to avoid taxes.

Public employees earn a wage premium for the same private sector position of over 10% plus they have better benefits, more time off, and a great pension. Compared to the self-employed with no pension or benefits it is no contest on that front.

Did anyone see what totoro did with that comment. Subtly shifted the narrative. It is no longer about equalizing tax treatment between persons doing identical work inside and outside of a private corporate structure (both private sector). Nope. It is about lazy overpaid government workers vs those hardy John Galts and Howard Roarks among the ranks of the self employed.

BTW the highest rate of small business employment in the private sector is in BC at 93.6% of all jobs.

No need to exaggerate. The actual small business percentage is 74.8 in BC http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/061.nsf/eng/h_03018.html#point2-1. The figure you cited includes enterprises of up to 500 employees which meet neither the actual definition of a small business nor common ideas of what a small business is.

The risk of losing a permanent position in the private sector is about 3%
per year

Thirty percent of small businesses don’t survive two years
Therefore 100% of employees working for these companies lose their jobs within that timeframe. Thankfully these businesses that start up and fail quickly count for a relatively small fraction of total small business employment otherwise private sector employment would be REALLY tenuous

All this aside lumping incorporated doctors with start up small businesses is ludicrous. I’m not bashing MD’s here, but they have a state enforced monopoly and nearly bottomless demand for their services paid for by the state. Kind different than my struggling coffee shop.

I want the anti-MD mobs to explain why doctors do not deserve an upper middle class life given the amount of schooling and responsibility. These are people who have excelled academically their entire lives and worked their asses off.

I would argue that most doctors fall into the upper class.

Doctors do deserve their upper class life, and I doubt these tax changes will take that away from them.

Seems kind of bizarre to characterize income as something that is due to chance like a casino. No wonder people resent high income earners, just got there by dumb luck apparently. Maybe I’m reading too much into this.

I don’t think you are reading too much into it. If you are talking about inheritance that would be fine. Earned income? Not only incorrect but the whole premise is based on a fantasy. A harmful fantasy. While we don’t all have an equal playing field to start with, to denigrate the role of individual effort in this manner is offensive.

Never mind how much doctors earn and how many years of schooling it requires, look at how much Christy Clark’s pals are making on their way out the door. Obscene.

Clark Clique scored huge golden parachutes

http://thebreaker.news/news/golden-parachutes/

“But don’t you get it Hawk. Small business is terribly risky per totoro. ”

I always thought you started a small business so you’re the boss and get to say “you’re fired” ? 😉

Anyone with a brain can see the trend for a long time now is less full time permanent status, less benefits and more part time work to save corporations(shareholders) and government money.

But don’t you get it Hawk. Small business is terribly risky per totoro. But having a “permanent” job working for one of those businesses – totally safe (If this wasn’t HHV I’d say “safe as houses”)

Cue totoro telling us how the lumpen-proletariat are spoiled by having EI.

“totoro is putting on a clinic right now!”

In what ? A lot of links ? Anyone with a brain can see the trend for a long time now is less full time permanent status, less benefits and more part time work to save corporations(shareholders) and government money. If you work for a small business you’re at the mercy of the economic shifts that can happen quickly and less likely to get a raise as well. Is it any wonder why wage growth is so low ?

“Microsoft president says tech company views Vancouver as a second home”

Microsoft left Victoria after less than 2 years. Kinda says it all.

The retained earnings taxation thing is tough since those dollars were earned under old rules. Fair is fair. But the other two are prospective and allow continued enjoyment of lower overall family tax rates.

What is happening right now is that rules put in place for one thing (capital accumulation) are being abused for another (lowering overall family tax rates).

I think the best thing to do is apply the kiddie tax treatment to anyone that doesn’t contribute to the business and simply ban the capital gains trick. The retained earnings thing is tough because of the timing issues.

Backbone or not, if the government wants to explicitly encourage a certain type of activity, they should do it explicitly, like the SRED program, not through backdoor loopholes only available after $20,000 in incorporation costs and “tax planning”.

Whether or not you support these tax changes the Liberals have done a lousy job rolling them out.

1) They gave the impression that people taking advantage of the current rules are cheats, which is not so.

2) They should have coupled this with something positive like an overall tax rate reduction or a bump up in the basic exemption. That would have created a wide constituency of support that would have opposed and partially neutralized the well funded opposition to the changes.

https://news.vice.com/story/the-rich-are-set-to-go-to-war-over-trudeaus-tax-changes

This is a decent article. The biggest problem with trying to make these changes is that people of influence are generally people who benefit from these loopholes. I have heard a ton of:

“Don’t make these changes because we are doctors and you’ll die because we’ll leave”

“Don’t make changes because we are accountants and know about these things” (and forget to mention maybe 50% of our practice revenues come from rich folks exploiting these very loopholes)”

“Don’t make these changes because we’re the media and are paid by rich folks exploiting these loopholes.

I don’t care who you are or what you do, why should your wife or kids be more valuable for tax purposes than mine? Sprinkling for corps is total BS. So is the cap gains conversion.

Does anyone remember what happened to the family tax credit/ income splitting thing that Harper pushed through and trudeau repealed a few years ago? Well this is slightly different but for many enabled the exact same thing – less taxes by pushing income to family members that has nothing to do with how much money you make. Accounting smoke and mirrors and that’s it

Defending these opaque loopholes is not the right way to go about this – closing them and then resolving the consequences later is (if there are in fact any which I doubt there will be)

be aware that “permanent” in the context of employment statistics means no pre-determined termination date

That is part of the definition used. The full definition vs. temporary is as follows:

Permanent worker: A permanent job is one that is expected to last as long as the employee wants it, given that business conditions permit. There is no pre-determined termination date.
Temporary worker: A temporary job has a pre-determined end date or will end as soon as project is completed or a fixed term contract.

https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TEMP_I

That’s not how it works, they are paid on a fee per service basis.

If they were paid hourly, they would not be able to incorporate(suppose they could as a personal service corporation)

I didn’t say they were paid on an hourly basis, I said they earn 150/hour at the hospital. Hospitalists actually earn 153/hour: https://ca.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=7ac46940b3dbf7e3&q=Royal+Jubilee+Hospital&l=British+Columbia&tk=1bpul2m951d4p0fn&from=web
And there are other ways of billing on a fee for service contract, alternative payment plan or other blended remuneration which also occur.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-doctor-shortage-medical-fees-1.4100251
Being paid an hourly wage does not magically turn you into an employee. Hospitals often have contracts with their physicians that are carefully worded to retain their independent contractor status which depends on many factors.

profits on which the unincorporated proprietor would have paid the full marginal tax rate at the time the income was earned.

Yes, there is a tax deferral which I’m arguing should be retained to allow for retirement planning and income smoothing and reinvestment in business. I disagree with any changes to this.

Moreover, when corporate profits, whether just earned or long retained within the corporation are paid out to the owner(s), there is a tax adjustment, is there not, reflecting the fact that corporation tax has already been paid

Depends if they are paid out as salary or dividends.

Salary is taxed at the regular rate but becomes and expense for the corporation. If you are paying it at a time when you are no longer earning income doesn’t help you much.

On eligible dividends you pay a gross up to turn that income back into pretax income — because the corporation has already paid taxes on it — then, you receive a tax credit to make it fair for everyone. Both you and the corporation aren’t being double-taxed and the CRA subsidizes you for the tax the corporation already paid on your dividends but the end game in my experience is that the same amount of tax is generally paid whether taken as salary or dividends and sometimes one is slightly better than the other. The bad thing with dividends is that you get no RRSP room and none of the deductions from income plus no EI or CPP.

Here is an explanation:
http://www.taxtips.ca/dtc/smallbusdtc.htm

Of course there is a lot of self interest there given I’m sure he has a high income himself, but I do think this will put a damper on growth.

Damper on growth? Excellent news! Then interest rates will freeze, or drop back to rock-bottom.

Yep, living in bubble land separates one from the common folk.

And you, Hawk, must be part of the common folk—what with your 500% annual stock market returns while living at the Oak Bay Beach Hotel.

doctor-controlled medical schools limiting admissions to ensure a lack of competition within the profession

Er, no. Absolutely not the problem. There are plenty of doctors graduating each year yet, in B.C., about 700,000 people, or 15 per cent of the population, have no family doctor.

At the Royal Jubilee Hospital doctors earn $150 per hour and work 40 hour weeks. They pay no overhead (for rent or staff) and do not have to run their own practice. A regular family doctor would need to earn $400,000 a year to match their salary and that’s not possible.

For a doctor graduating now there is little incentive to become a family practitioner. You can’t even sell a family practice anymore – you can’t give them away. Even less value if the tax rules change.

Before I post anything I usually research the factual basis for it, or I state that it is my opinion. This is not my opinion, it is supported by the facts.

And thank you for subsequently providing the information.

There is no shortage of doctors. Or if there is, it is an entirely artificial shortage caused by (a) doctor-controlled medical schools limiting admissions to ensure a lack of competition within the profession ; and (b) the medical profession’s monopolistic control over the distribution of drugs.

The medical associations are excellent at extracting monopoly rents from their privileged position. In the US they have perfected this.

The fact that the median family income in Victoria does not decrease but increases you should tell you something about individual income stability.

It tells me that the economy is growing and that at least a portion of productivity increases are being captured by rising middle class incomes. Those are both good things. It tells me next to nothing about individual income stability.

The origins of the tax inequity between CCPC owners on the one hand and proprietors, contractors and employees on the other is explained thus:

Traditionally, the small business corporate tax rate applicable to active business income has been much lower than the top personal tax rate. This, of course, encourages the retention of earnings at the corporate level, up to the annual “small business limit” ($500,000 per associated group of corporations, starting in 2009). Some years ago, the general corporate tax rate for business income rivaled the top marginal personal tax rate; however, in recent years, the general corporate rate has dropped dramatically. The latest group of federal changes (stemming from the November 2007 Economic Statement) will see the general business tax rate eventually dropping to 15% by 2012, for a “target” federal/provincial corporate rate of 25%.[1] This, of course, is considerably lower than top personal tax rates. Therefore, there is a substantial incentive to retain profits at the corporate level rather than distribute them as dividends or salaries and thus incur additional tax exposure.

The need for this change is obvious, since without it, a doctor or other business person who is not incorporated, and who, therefore, pays tax on investment income at the top marginal rate, is taxed more heavily than the incorporated business person. It is in other words, a simple matter of tax fairness. Equal tax rates for all Canadians.

But doctors, en masse, obsessed as their are with their own importance and expectation of very large incomes, seem incapable of assimilating this simple principle of equity.

An additional proposed tax change is designed to prevent a doctor from paying their spouse for services not rendered as a means to split income and thus reduce overall tax liability. Of course, if a husband or wife is employed in the business or professional practice of their spouse they may be paid a salary, provided only that the salary received is commensurate with the work performed.

But this obviously sound principle, is, apparently, to a doctor, impossible to understand. Or if doctors understand it, they cannot, as entitled beings, accept it. Instead they twitter idiotically about quitting the profession or leaving the country.

In response, good riddance to such idiots is really all that needs to be said.

There is no shortage of doctors. Or if there is, it is an entirely artificial shortage caused by (a) doctor-controlled medical schools limiting admissions to ensure a lack of competition within the profession; and (b) the medical profession’s monopolistic control over the distribution of drugs.

The median “family” income is 89k a big difference.

Have you looked at the stats? BC’s unemployment rate is 5.3%. The median income in Victoria is $89,600.

Ahhhh, I see what you did there. If the posters below are arguing that people have tenuous employment, (ie where incomes aren’t necessary stable, and a growing number of those types do not have some or all of the ancillary benefits – one of the motives of having part time, temp or contract employees), and you counter with the above, I don’t think that’s fair.

A 5.3% unemployment rate, or X median income is not the same measurement, or type of measurement, that speaks to the social issue they are referring to. If you want to debate them, do it on the same terms. Your obvious command of the English language might intimidate some and convince others, but the reality is no one has a pass to adjust the terms of dialogue to suit simple and repetitive contradiction.

“totoro “The average Canadian employee has …….. a stable income.”

you may be a teensy bit out of touch in your Oak Bay bubble”

Yep, living in bubble land separates one from the common folk.

Starting a business which creates jobs takes risk, and there is an un-quantifiable set of costs associated with that risk. That risk requires incentive. With the erosion of the incentive to take that risk ultimately means a loss of job creation. For anyone who works for someone else, be it a corporation or a family owned business, when you punch your time card, you will get paid. Ownership does not carry that guarantee. The first year of my business I logged over 3000 hours. To this day I never received a cent for any of those hours. In fact I went deeper into debt to pay the bills. Why? Because I made sure I met all of my debt obligations to keep the business alive and thus the 15 people it employed paid every two weeks.

Very well written. If you have not walked in the shoes of a business owner I don’t think you can really understand the risk and responsibility level. The incentive needs to be there in the system somewhere if you want farmers and doctors and small businesses and entrepreneurs and people with high level abilities to invest themselves and their assets into the economy and create and maintain jobs.

This the only thing me and Trudeau agree on. Go for it make them pay their taxes. Employees have to so should they. Next go after the contract workers who are really employees.

“My understanding is that if you make over 100k it has been worth it to incorporate. Not to mention if you are in a business with risk of being sued it makes sense to do it.”

Well that is the nub of the issue right there. Maybe we are overtaxed overall but I see no reason why a professional or business that incorporates should get a tax advantage over a professional or business that chooses not to incorporate.

If we need more tax breaks for the rich to entice them to stay in Canada does it have to be through the route of incorporation?

I find the arguments attacking the tax changes by decrying the impact on “mom and pop” businesses to be quite dishonest. The VAST majority of businesses do not accrue large sums of money for passive investments. It may not be ALL about doctors and lawyers, but it mostly is.

Here is a good article that puts the teeth-gnashing about the tax changes in perspective.

http://nationalpost.com/news/andrew-coyne-why-the-liberals-proposed-tax-changes-are-taking-a-pounding

A familiar mix of government incompetence and opposition shamelessness — together with a large dollop of special-interest shinola — have combined to turn a package of relatively modest tax changes into a government-shaking PR disaster.

Indeed, among the early propaganda triumphs in the whole controversy is the notion that the measures in question are in fact aimed at these two groups. Vast clouds of steamy rhetoric have been exhaled on impassioned tributes to their value to the economy, the hardships they endure, and so on, followed by righteous fury at the manifest injustice of requiring them to pay the same tax as others earning the same or less income.

worth reading the whole article

I don’t hear the doctors and lawyers etc. lobbying for all Canadians to have equivalent retirement security to public servants.

You haven’t to date because tax planning has allowed these individuals to plan for retirement. You are certainly hearing a lot about this now that this is at risk. Look online.

If the changes took into account the disproportionate cost in lost wages and tuition to become a professional and the lack of EI, maternity or a pension plan into the calculation then we’d be closer to fairness. In addition, there are economic reasons to support entrepreneurship which creates jobs. No such analysis has been done by government as far as I can tell.

totoro – “This is a significant disadvantage vs a public servant unless there is a compensatory mechanism or the ability to plan for retirement otherwise.”

I don’t hear the doctors and lawyers etc. lobbying for all Canadians to have equivalent retirement security to public servants.

I would willingly agree that the public service has overly generous pension provisions relative to the average Canadian (that partly pays for those generous pensions). The answer to that is not to create or maintain a set of tax breaks that are not available to average Canadians and only favours the relatively wealthy.

As fizzy points out this is called an RRSP. People on pensions have greatly reduced RRSP contribution limits (as they should be).

You do realize that self-employed people often have very uneven income. It is not just about doctors. Many entrepreneurs starting out are not going to earn the 145k a year needed to max the rsp contribution. They need all extra cash to grow their company and will be taking minimal salaries for years likely. And some years will be good and some won’t – if you are successful.

And many self-employed people are taking dividends and not income. You get zero rsp room on a dividend. Many female physicians, for example, use the retained earnings to fund maternity leaves for which they are not otherwise covered.

From my perspective there are too many limitations and not enough incentive left in the system to support investment in business never mind the impact on other types of investments.

Those who want to be doctors will likely still become doctors, but will they continue to work in Canada? Maybe. Will they cut back on their staff and their hours if they do? Probably.

I have friends who are doctors who have sold their house and will sell their share in a walk-in clinic business this year in anticipation that these tax changes might be implemented. They are mad at being portrayed as tax cheats and frustrated with the change in the rules that they planned for retirement with. The difference between selling now and next year if the changes go through is significant – I’d expect a lot of professionals are getting this advice.

Younger and more mobile doctors will be much more likely to leave for the US where there is a physician shortfall and much higher after tax income.

CS, that was awesome. LOL

Be it small businesses or doctors, why do you think one set should have a tax advantage, the set with the higher income?

I think doctors and other professionals have no public pension and the rsp contributions are not going to take the place of a public pension – ever. This is a significant disadvantage vs a public servant unless there is a compensatory mechanism or the ability to plan for retirement otherwise.

For an entrepreneur to forgo EI and vacation pay and put their own capital at risk, often through borrowing on a primary residence, there needs to be some possibility of an advantage. In addition, there also needs to be an ability to have retained earnings to see through business ups and downs. These are the people that provide jobs to 70% of private sector employees.

In my view there are a lot of buzzwords used by the federal government right now that imply entrepreneurs, doctors, and farmers are tax cheats. Very demotivating to individuals who have spent more than a decade in school and take on excessive responsibility/liability in their work career, or have taken significant risks that should be promoted by society for positive economic growth, or for those that have good years and lean years on a regular basis.

The government should pursue those with undeclared income more rigorously if it needs additional income for its platform. Those people who are not declaring rental income as one example. To pursue those who employ others and take risks and put in way more effort than average and have planned for the future is not good tax policy imo.

The only change which seems to have some merit to me from a fairness perspective is preventing the conversion of a private corporation’s regular income into capital gains.

John Dollar
September 12, 2017 at 5:52 pm
hmmmm, porting a mortgage mid-term without a stress test. Maybe if the mortgage is insured but I don’t see the benefit of this to the banks because you’re breaking the loan contract. That’s a new mortgage then with another bank. If this was permitted, I could see some lenders becoming creative with this financing option.

I’d say no to this because there are some that would find a way to abuse it.

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Hey John, the link that I posted was a submission to OSFI by mortgage brokers. The bigger message here is that even they believe that the new OSFI legislation will impact mortgage renewals.

Their submission will get as much attention from OSFI as the bleating from the CREA.

I find it completely illogical to implement these changes unless the government also creates a pension scheme for the self-employed which allows pre-tax contributions.

As fizzy points out this is called an RRSP. People on pensions have greatly reduced RRSP contribution limits (as they should be).

If a high earning self employed person contributes the maximum in RRSP from age 30 to age 65 they will have a retirement fund of approximately 4.9 million when they retire. This assumes 7 percent nominal returns, RRSP contribution limits indexed to inflation at 2% a year. The 4.9 million will have equivalent purchasing power to 2.45 million today. They will also have CPP which isn’t much, but it isn’t nothing.

That said I would probably support a mandatory or opt-in public pension option that would be accessible to people with lame or zero company pensions and to self employed people

“… unless the government also creates a pension scheme for the self-employed …”
There is a pension scheme for the self-employed, it’s called RRSP. And it’s equally useful for the mass of employed people that have no pension from their work. Why do you propose it is fair for high income earners to pay less tax than those with incomes too low to incorporate? Be it small businesses or doctors, why do you think one set should have a tax advantage, the set with the higher income?

Why do people keep making up false reasons why this is a bad idea? No, it’s the doctors, no it’s the poor small business people, no, the sky will be falling! All bs.

Not all mortgages may be ported. That would have had to been set up with the original contract. While the mortgagor and mortgagee are not increasing the size of the mortgage they are using a different property as the security. So is this the same mortgage? Or is it a new mortgage that has to be registered?

I don’t think this is a big issue. The only time that I’ve seen mortgages that had a clause allowing the mortgage to be ported is when the applicant is working for the bank or a very good client of the bank. Usually there is a reason why they want to port the mortgage such as the applicant has just retired and would not meet the lender’s guidelines. It isn’t something that is common these days.

Gotta say, even as someone making far below the levels to be affected by the new tax changes, Garth’s last two articles on the subject are concerning.

Leo, here is a link to a recent BNN interview with investor Stephen Jarislowsky, where they discuss this in detail, as well as the housing market. I always liked his interviews. Straight shooter. Plus he’s nearly 100 years old, which is awesome.

http://www.bnn.ca/bank-of-canada-acted-far-too-late-jarislowsky-1.854460

JD, Porting a mortgage means the mortgage stays with the same lending institution. This is for someone selling their home and then taking their existing mortgage to their new home without getting a new mortgage which avoids any payout penalty. You must be thinking of something else because porting is a very sensible strategy.

Local Fool: “The proposed stress test covers all insured and uninsured originations and potentially renewals – but the latter I’m not sure on.”
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It would appear that the Mortgage Professionals Canada know what OSFI’s intentions are.

https://mortgageproscan.ca/en/post/submission-to-osfi

“We also recommend consideration be given to individuals who currently hold
mortgages. If a 200 basis point stress test is implemented above contract rate, and
rates do in fact rise over their term, many may no longer qualify for a renewal. They will
see an artificial 200 basis point increase over their actual interest rate increase. We
recommend that mortgage renewals be permitted to qualify at their contract rate without an additional stress test. Similarly, an exception to the qualification should be made for individuals who port their mortgage because they move mid-term and do not increase, or reduce, the outstanding loan amount.”

A somewhat difficult/interesting read on one of the sources that the Bank of Canada decision making process is built on.

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/swp2016-38.pdf

“The buildup of debt during the boom phase of the global financial cycle raises the likelihood of a subsequent financial crisis. New research shows that the central banks can lean against the growth of the debt stock by keeping policy rates higher than warranted by current conditions. This is effective in lowering the likelihood of either a large house price correction or of a financial crisis over the long run. However, these effects are not large enough to overcome the negative consequences for borrowers who face a higher cost of debt.”

Just a question. What’s the difference between the new OSFI regulations that are being proposed and the measures enacted last year when they made people qualify at the Bank of Canada posted rate?

Hawk you bring joy 🙂

#107, 1611 Belmont Ave slashed $54K to $549K. Even the city’s top agent and “coming soon” pump can’t perform miracles.

4084 Cedar Hill Road slashed $47K to $938K.

934 Boulderwood Rise , #8 in Broadmead slashed $49K.

Another one of Luke’s neighbors has to do a baby slash of $13K at 2584 Lincoln Rd. A few months ago the Beemers would be lined up around the block. Nothing but crickets now.

Another 20 plus slashes city wide from Gangford to Sidney. Even the new boxes being built in Happy Valley ain’t so happy.

The chopping block is getting crowded looking like a bloody Game of Thrones scene. 😉

Home Capital shareholders shoot down Buffet. Guess they want to go under faster.

Buffett’s bid to almost double stake in Canadian mortgage lender Home Capital gets voted down

http://www.omaha.com/money/buffett/buffett-s-bid-to-almost-double-stake-in-canadian-mortgage/article_cbfc7fce-97db-11e7-b02e-dbb16b450547.html

You have no idea just how astute your observation is, haha.

But it is a real question folks want answered, somehow. Whatever. I just keep out of it.

@ CS,

My partner is currently authoring a white paper on climate adaptation strategies, and building on flood plains – it addresses the, “what do we do about building homes on flood plains” question.

Her suggestion so far appears to be, in a few words, “don’t”. Kind of funny, but who could argue…

http://i.imgur.com/PANFA9W.jpg

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/12/business/economy/hurricane-houston-housing.html?mcubz=0

No, comments are published immediately. The 5 minute edit period does not prevent them from showing up to others in the meantime. Once they show up, nothing is stopping someone else from replying to them.

Leo, I understand how it works, but perhaps how it works isn’t ideal. What would be the downside of changing it so that comments aren’t publicly visible until the editing/deleting window expires?

Transunion would appear to have a better understanding of Canadian debt than the indebted. I don’t doubt for a minute that they would know how many homeowners are in trouble.

Agreed. Not only do agencies like Equifax and the above have a better understanding about debt and the indebted, they can also predict which groups and individuals are more likely to have credit issues than others. My understanding is there is a fairly robust statistical analysis available to analyze credit holders, which lends to the warnings both have been giving out. It wouldn’t be rocket science to throw in an interest rate variable into that equation and have a look at the expected outcome.

They know what kind of risk you represent, even if you don’t – no matter how good your cover story is to your prospective lender, or whether you believe it yourself.

LeoS: “The chance of those 700,000 people actually having even a picture of how much they spend every month and how close that puts them to the edge is zero.”
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Well, you hit the nail on the head there, Leo and that’s the scariest part. If people had the financial acumen that seemingly everyone on this blog did them we wouldn’t see the kind of debt ratios we have in this country.

Transunion would appear to have a better understanding of Canadian debt than the indebted. I don’t doubt for a minute that they would know how many homeowners are in trouble.

“TransUnion is an American company that provides credit information and information management services to approximately 45,000 businesses and approximately 500 million consumers worldwide in 33 countries.” Wikipedia

Marko Juras
September 11, 2017 at 7:49 pm
Watching BNN, it will be interesting to see the spill over effect from Toronto.

So why April? Why not MOM or YOY or even February or June?
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Hmmmm, maybe because that was the market peak and it’s crashing from there. The media was your friend on the way up, Marco, not so much on the way down.

BUSINESS
Toronto Houses Are Losing Value At A Rate Of $100,000 A Month
Prices have fallen by a quarter since the market peaked in April.

An average single-family home in the city of Toronto went for $1.191 million in August, the city’s real estate board reported Wednesday. That’s a drop of nearly $388,000, or 24.5 per cent, since April, when Ontario’s government announced a new foreign speculators’ tax and other measures meant to cool the housing market.

For anyone looking at strata properties a new Victoria based company has popped up offering a pretty interesting service -> http://condoclear.ca/

Just for fun –>Any predictions on how long it takes for the new interest rate increase to affect local SFH prices?

It depends on how long of a rate guarantee the banks are giving prospective purchasers. For example it may be 90 days for houses and two years for condos. That may seem unfair to some people but the reality is that the government wants to slow down appreciation but at the same time stimulate construction.

It can’t be done.

Just for fun –>Any predictions on how long it takes for the new interest rate increase to affect local SFH prices?

I’d agree with Marko that the current increases are probably not enough to substantially affect prices. There won’t (yet) be sticker shock at renewal for one thing.

I also think it will be hard to see the effect of small interest rate changes among all the other moving parts affecting house prices – OSFI changes, lagged effect of earlier changes, changes plus and minus to the economy, possible NDP clampdown on speculation, foreign buyer tax, federal tax changes that will apparently cause small business apocalypse.

I do think if there is another 0.5 to 1.0% in the relatively short term it will begin to bite on housing prices unless the economy is absolutely riproaring. The increases to the overnight rate so far got us back to where we were just a couple of years ago. One percent on top of that would put us back to the levels that haven’t been experienced since 2008 (albeit very low in historical terms).

One point I am in agreement with the bears is that housing and our economy are more sensitive than ever to interest rate hikes after this long period of extremely low rates.

Watching BNN, it will be interesting to see the spill over effect from Toronto.

http://www.bnn.ca/polopoly_fs/1.848511!/fileimage/httpImage/image.JPG_gen/derivatives/default/toronto-home-prices.JPG

Marko Juras
September 11, 2017 at 4:27 pm
Just for fun –>Any predictions on how long it takes for the new interest rate increase to affect local SFH prices?

I don’t think interest rates have increased enough….I think a better question would be how much do interest rates need to increase to substantially affect the local SFH prices.
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Apparently, a million people might disagree with you Marco.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/transunion-debt-interest-rates-1.3759844

“It is unfortunate almost a million Canadians would struggle if mortgage interest rates increased even a small amount,” said Jeffrey Schwartz, executive director of Consolidated Credit Counseling Services of Canada.

Just for fun –>Any predictions on how long it takes for the new interest rate increase to affect local SFH prices?

I don’t think interest rates have increased enough….I think a better question would be how much do interest rates need to increase to substantially affect the local SFH prices.

(I deleted my comment that Marko just quoted. That’s sort of a bug, isn’t it, Leo? Maybe comments shouldn’t be visible to readers until after the 5-minute editing window is over. That might eliminate cases like this.)

100% agree but what happens when I need medical help and my doctor is Caribbean?

Let’s cross that bridge when we get there. Until then, it just feels like scare-mongering.

Starting next year with this whole small business tax BS coming down the pipe I am looking at spending 2+ months a year in Europe

Looking at what the BC Government just announced going to change that to 3 months 🙂 Ohh well.

JD, for the record, you wrote –
At one time I thought condos and town homes were a step down from a house because the builders in the past built condos like they did apartment blocks. Boring, boring, boring units.

So my quoting you by saying that you referred to condos as a ‘lower’ form of housing is based on that comment. ‘A step down’. Thus, lower.

(I agree, by the way. They used to be very boring, perhaps even unsightly. They also get rented out much more than SFHs. Both reasons, I think, lead to prejudice and NIMBYism. Now – much less boring, but I don’t know if the prejudice is gone).

Anyway, that’s what I was referring to, not something ‘I wanted to read’. I don’t give a flying fig about what you think about condos.

“I can appreciate you are in favour of condos Marko, and you said you were happy growing up in one, but it’s the reality that most people prefer to raise children in a house with a yard and some privacy.”

I agree. Which is why it sucks that Victoria’s housing stock, like a lot of other N.A. towns and cities, is not sufficiently diverse. There are not very many side/side, front/back duplexes. There are no semi-detached houses, nor are there fee-simple row houses outside of the West Shore (that I know of).

Dealing with a strata council is the main reason I wouldn’t want to live in a townhouse or condo, and then being forced to pay a monthly assessment for shit that I can do myself. I mostly would prefer to be left alone, and know my neighbours from behind a fence.

Be nice if there was more semi-detached housing.

@ LocalFool below, re: “Another is older folks who cannot or will not do the yard-work and other maintenance…”

Living in an area that is predominantly elderly, I find that most either take great care of their property themselves or hire local trades for everything from yardwork to window cleaning. There are of course end-of-life situations where things are simply falling apart…

My work has taken me into a lot of homes, especially where there are domestic issues, and IMO there is a segment of people at all stages of life who simply do not belong in a house, either because they’re too busy (career / lifestyle), or they’re slobs, or they lack basic life skills. The advantage of apartments is that most of the responsibility for care is taken out of their hands. (This is why there’s such a push to get the homeless into apartments: they work like a kennel, ensuring some standard of living without the associated obligations. Don’t think of this as being cynical on my part; it’s just a practical observation.)

I was in Olympic Village for a week at the end of August. My son just sold his condo there, at a ridiculous profit, good for him I guess. Anyway I was happy to see so many children and new families with babies. Sadly in the same building there was a drug bust with a lab discovered. The same night as the bust three other suits mysteriously emptied and their occupants are still being sought by the police. I guess that is the good and the bad of condos in a busy city. In my opinion this might be where Victoria is headed.

Yeah, also, as JD noted on the last thread – condos are seen in many areas as a ‘lower’ form of housing than SFH

Did I say that? Or did I say…

If you have a small family or you’re an empty nester, owning a condo is a better lifestyle than a house

People read what they want to read and forget the rest.

Yeah, also, as JD noted on the last thread – condos are seen in many areas as a ‘lower’ form of housing than SFH. So you don’t often have condos built on quiet side-streets near parks. Why not? Probably because planners don’t like to mix and match in new neighborhoods (and SFH’s always get the quiet spots), and neighbours get all NIMBY with these proposals when rezoning is suggested.

I want to live on a quiet side-street near a park; thus, I choose a SFH, because that’s what exists.

I’ve also figured out that I really don’t need a SFH for reasons other people want SFH. For example, I thought I would enjoy a house because I could have a huge garage. However, I don’t have time to work on cars; therefore, underground parking stalls in a condo tower would be equivalent in my personal circumstance. For someone who actual has time to work on a car different story.

100% I would go with a condo…..why

Strong argument. Another is older folks who cannot or will not do the yard-work and other maintenance. So, also can be a stage of life issue.

Thanks Leo!

Some similarities to Vancouver, actually, except townhouses. I’m guessing some of the demand for condos is occurring at the expense of the detached segment.

What does the data say vs the long term trend, given 2016 was a bit of an outlier year? I suspect what we’re looking at is more than just seasonality…